Cup of Coffee: April 30, 2007
Posted by ubelmann on Monday, April 30th, 2007 at 6:00 am
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In the words of the immortal Meatloaf, "two out of three ain't bad."
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In the words of the immortal Meatloaf, "two out of three ain't bad."
This entry was posted by ubelmann on Monday, April 30th, 2007 at 6:00 am and is filed under Cup of Coffee. It is one of 609 entries by the author. We are no longer accepting Letters to the Editor on this post. Why?
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I was at the dome for a game last year when Meatloaf was there. He participated in the homerun derby with TC.
I assume you guys have heard about the mess in the Indians/Orioles game Saturday night, when the umpires disallowed a run that clearly should have counted, and then allowed the run an inning or two later. What do you think?
While the umpires ultimately got the call right, I don't see how you can make the change that far after the fact. Eric Wedge makes the point that he would have managed differently had he known he was behind, rather than tied, and it seems to me that he has a point. What are some other opinions?
So I guess nobody thinks anything about it. Oh, well, never mind then.
Must have been blatantly wrong. Usually though, MLB uses the judgment of the umpires on the field at the time to make rulings - and usually they stick.
This wasn't a judgment call. It had to do with the interpretation of the rule regarding whether a run counted. No one disputed that the run had crossed the plate before the third out--it was just a matter of whether that made the run count in this situation.
From what I've read, the umpires did get the call right, but not until an inning or two later, at which point they added the run to Baltimore's total. That's the part that seems wrong to me. It seems that you would have to either correct it at the time or not at all.
Just read the recap. Brings up the question as to statute of limitations on calls, right or wrong.
Now it's in the hands of the commish...
I finally went and looked it up. It sounds like an interesting case. I'm guessing that one umpire must have thought that when Tejada was doubled off first it was the same as the situation with a force out, so that the run had no chance of scoring. It is a somewhat weird case--I can't say I would be certain I would be about the ruling if someone had told me at the time that the run shouldn't count.
I agree with Wedge that the run could've changed decisions he made as the game went along. However, I think it's more important to credit the Orioles with the run that they rightly scored. That is, once the umpires screwed up, they had to either screw over the Indians or the Orioles, and I think they chose the lesser of two evils here.
As for the umpires: Games get delayed for all kinds of reasons--streakers, award ceremonies, Ron Gardenhire temper tantrums, etc. I think we'll all survive if you delay the game for a couple of minutes while you pull out the rulebook to check a run-scoring decision. Take it one play at a time, for cryin' out loud.
I fully agree--if they didn't know, they should have checked at the time. If it's that important, get it right the first time.
Especially since they had an inning break anyway.
Buster Olney had an interesting take on the matter. (ESPN Insider) His examples were a little extreme, but I think his main point is right - stick with the call you make the first time. Take some time to confer at the time if need be, but you can't go back on your call.
It's one of the first things we teach the new referees in intramurals - make your call, and stick by it. Of course, we try to get the new refs to make the right calls, but the first whiff some meathead frat boy gets of your indecision, they'll be all over you. Confidence in your decision helps keep them calm, otherwise they think you're wrong every time something goes against them.
I guess I disagree with Olney's position because I don't think the strategic effect of being tied or one run down in the 4th-6th innings is really very great. It's still a close game, you should still have your best players out there trying to win the game for you.
If it was a straight judgement call, I would agree with Olney. Umpires should be decisive about their judgement calls. But if it is a matter of procedure (which this was) it's more important in my mind that the Orioles be credited with the run that they rightly deserved than whether the Indians are employing a tied-game strategies as compared to one-run-down strategies.
Using our 20/20 hindsight, I fail to see how this really put the Indians at a strategic disadvantage in this particular case. Sowers went 6 full innings, and wasn't in any real trouble in the 6th. In the 5th, maybe you'd pull him after he let the first two runners on base, but really, how often does a manager pull his starter with no outs in the fifth inning because he has a one run lead as opposed to a tie? At that point, Wedge needed more outs out of his starter even if he was up by one run, his bullpen isn't that deep.
In principle, I see where the Indians have a legitimate beef, but if I'm the commish, I don't see enough evidence in this case to say that the biazarre scoring changed the outcome of the game--Cleveland's shaky bullpen did that all on their own after the scoring change.
In the 5th, maybe you’d pull him after he let the first two runners on base, but really, how often does a manager pull his starter with no outs in the fifth inning because he has a one run lead as opposed to a tie? At that point, Wedge needed more outs out of his starter even if he was up by one run, his bullpen isn’t that deep.
Never happens, even if the manager has a good pen--because it's not only early to start burning relievers if one can help it, but any manager would want to give his starter a chance to work through the jam and get his 'W.' In the regular season, starters don't get pulled before the 6th unless they're hurt, or out of gas (reached a pitch count early), or the team is losing and the manager sees the game getting out of hand.
I noticed that
Rich LedererMarc Hulet says Machado isn't expected back this season. I hadn't heard that before.Terry Ryan must really love the guy to be willing to carry him on the DL for a full year AND still have to carry him on the active roster for 90 days next season to keep him.
I don't know if he'd have to like him that much. It's like paying Machado $600K for next year instead of $300K. Considering the Twins' lack of in-house options, an extra $300K for Machado is better than paying the veteran minimum for someone like Neifi Perez or trading cheap talent away for a stop-gap middle infielder.
I looked at Machado's stats a while ago, and to the best of my recollection, I remember them being rather Punto-esque. If Machado has a better glove than Punto, then I'm all for keeping a cheaper version of LNP around as the utility infielder.
right. they are paying major-league minimum for a guy to sit on the DL rather than sending him back. I guess that seems like a lot to me. Are you telling me that they saw enough in Machado this spring to think that flushing $300k down the toilet and trying him out again next spring is better than the expected value of just sending him back and looking for someone Machado-like in next winter's Rule 5?? I suppose....
Well, it also depends on how much scouting info they had on him when they drafted him. He played with Pawtucket in the IL for the last two years, and since the Red Wings play there, they've presumably seen a lot of him already. It's not like they were drafting him blind based off numbers or something.
Plus, I looked back at his numbers, and over his first 600 or so PA in AAA, he hit roughly .280/.355/.360 as a 23-24 year old. For comparison, over Punto's first 800 PA in AAA, at the same ages, he hit roughly .250/.366/.313. And they each had roughly even SO:BB ratios at this point. If they were both 24 years old right now, I'd say that Machado stood a better chance of being a successful MLB hitter, because he was able to back up his walks with some hits.
But with most backup IF, after you figure out whether or not they can be at least a replacement level hitter, you're worried about how much defensive value they have. I can't speak to that, but if Machado is good with the glove, you could do worse than to risk the extra $300K for him. I think this is a unique enough circumstance (injured Rule 5 player) that you just file the expense under the petty cash column and move on to more important issues like how the hell you're going to get any production at 3B this/next year, CF next year, and how to find some replacement level corner outfielders.
What options do they have in this situation? They can't release him while he's hurt, can they? Can they try to switch him to the minor league DL? If that's even an option, I assume they would have to offer him back to his old team. I'm not sure how much choice they have about keeping him.
I'm pretty sure they could just offer him back to the Nationals if they wanted to save some cash. And IIRC, Liriano is the only guy on the 60-day DL, so I don't think Machado is really even taking up roster space, since he could be moved to the 60-day DL.
The Kevin Cameron line from that link was eye-opening. He's currently up to 12.2 shutout innings in San Diego with 13 K's (albeit with 10 BB). We'll see if it's just the rest of the SD bullpen rubbing off, but he's been steady for his entire minor league career.
It's hard to fret about losing a 27-year-old right-handed reliever, though, especially with our ML bullpen.
It’s hard to fret about losing a 27-year-old right-handed reliever, though, especially with our ML bullpen.
Right. I mean, who was he going to push out of the bullpen? As a righty, he would have had to beat out Nathan, Neshek, Crain, Rincon, or Guerrier. Since he's not a long man, he doesn't really get to compete with Guerrier (or Perkins' eventual spot, either.)
The BP stat of the day today opened my eyes a bit: the Twins' bullpen leads the AL in WXRL (essentailly WPA) so far this season. Yeah, they could've done better so far, but you can always find places where a bullpen could've done better.
Cameron's had pretty solid numbers in the minors, but I'd guess that control will continue to be an issue for him, and when he eventually starts giving up home runs here and there, he's not going to look so great.
The main point here, however, should be that Terry Ryan failed to find a market for some of his excess pitching talent.
I would like to believe that the organization (every organization) has a database that tells them which players in the organization are coming up on Rule 5 eligibility. These players should be peddled or promoted (whenever possible) rather than lost for nothing more than the $50k or whatever the fee is.
of course, the economist in me says that the evidence suggests that there is little to no market for eventual Rule 5 draftees. Otherwise, rational GMs would be making more trades involving the Kevin Camerons of the world.
so why would there be market failures here? My guess is that the fee for claiming a Rule 5 player (plus the added salary involved) significantly exceeds the expected value of the average, eligible player.
The main point here, however, should be that Terry Ryan failed to find a market for some of his excess pitching talent.
Terry Ryan simply values Cameron much less than he values the rest of the guys in the bullpen. They aren't interchangeable to him. In terms of walk rate, Cameron is probably going to be roughly equivalent to J.C. Romero, and I remember quite a bit of bitching from the Twins fan base when it came to the number of free passes Mr. Romero issued.
Of course, the economist in me says that the evidence suggests that there is little to no market for eventual Rule 5 draftees. Otherwise, rational GMs would be making more trades involving the Kevin Camerons of the world.
Right, you're not going to get anything for Cameron in a trade. He's a generic bullpen arm at best. There's an argument to be made that TR could've dealt someone like Juan Rincon for a position player, but Cameron wouldn't likely directly replace Rincon's performance, so then all of the particulars about which players are involved in the deal matter, and will they make up for the difference between Cameron and Rincon, etc., etc.
I certainly wouldn't have been opposed to seeing the Twins deal a bullpen arm like Rincon if they could've gotten a lot in return, but it's tough to say exactly what the offers would've been.
you’re not going to get anything for Cameron in a trade
this is the part I struggle with. Why not? Why not an NFL-style trade (Dude X for a year T+x 6th and T+y 7th round pick)?
If a franchise is pitching-resource rich, its marginal guys may well be better than a pitching-poor organization's above-average prospects. Redistribution can benefit both franchises.
the Rule 5 fee structure and requirement that a draftee spend 90 days on the major-league active roster are significant barriers to Rule 5 selection. which means that some trades that should happen don't happen. Further, the fact that there are ANY Rule 5 draftees even with these barriers suggests that there is a significant, under-exploited talent pool out there tied up in the minors.
whether that is bad for baseball, I don't know. But it's certainly bad for the Major League replacement-level players in the minors.
But it’s certainly bad for the Major League replacement-level players in the minors.
It's bad for something like 5-10 guys in the minors per year, if that.
Further, the fact that there are ANY Rule 5 draftees even with these barriers suggests that there is a significant, under-exploited talent pool out there tied up in the minors.
I see the exact opposite phenomenon. The number of failed Rule 5 picks tells me that teams are fewer deserving Rule 5 picks than there are players picked in the Rule 5 draft. So some of them have to toil in the minors for another year or two, and if they still can't make the roster, that's what minor league free agency is all about.
Also, why would you do away with the requirement that the player spends time on the active roster? The whole point is to get players who aren't being promoted quickly enough to have a chance to be promoted. If they're just getting plucked from one franchise's AAA team to go play on another franchise's AAA team, I don't see much, if any, benefit to the player.
Also, the fee is a total non-issue. In a league where some players make $30K per plate appearance (while racking up 500-600+ PA), a $50K fee is nothing if you think you might fill an entire roster spot with that player.
Further, the fact that there are ANY Rule 5 draftees even with these barriers suggests that there is a significant, under-exploited talent pool out there tied up in the minors.
I see the exact opposite phenomenon. The number of failed Rule 5 picks tells me that teams are fewer deserving Rule 5 picks than there are players picked in the Rule 5 draft. So some of them have to toil in the minors for another year or two, and if they still can’t make the roster, that’s what minor league free agency is all about.
Well, no. The club owns these guys' major-league rights for an extensive period of time (4 or 5 years, depending on age of first signing, or 3 years on a 40-man roster). The Rule 5 draft then imposes a substantial (relative to the expected benefit) transaction cost on any club that wants to draft an under-utilized player from another club's system. That transaction cost deters drafting; hence, it deters player movement from low-valued (within-system) positions to higher-valued positions (within some other system). That (deterred) higher-valued position need not be an immediate spot on a major league roster.
Likewise, there is a minor league phase to the Rule 5 draft (AAA teams drafting AA or A players; AA teams drafting A players), but these guys presumably are very unlikely to make it to the big leagues.
so who gets free agency at the minor league level? you have to have spent 3 years on a 40-man roster. If a player has spent 3 years on the 40-man, he's probably already spent 5+ years in the minors and, therefore, been passed over for the Rule 5 draft at least once. Odds are high that a minor leaguer granted free agency will be in his mid- to late-20s and very unlikely ever to make it to the majors.
as for the fee being a non-issue, I disagree. Just because the fee is small compared to the total budget of the organization doesn't make it irrelevant. The economic question is about expected marginal value. $50k plus a season's worth of major-league minimum salary for a player who provides no margin above what you expect from players already in your own system (and the further loss of roster flexibility of being able to move such players up and down) has to deter some transactions.
Why not just grant free-agent status to any Rule 5 draftee that a drafting club decides not to retain?
Why not just grant free-agent status to any Rule 5 draftee that a drafting club decides not to retain?
Because the initial club has already invested a lot in that player's development and they deserve some sort of return on that investment as an incentive to develop players over the long-term. The size of that return is a matter up to debate, but I don't think that willy-nilly redistributing minor league talent is a good idea for baseball.
As to the larger point, I still disagree with you. If there were that many players who were ready to be promoted to the major leagues, teams would find them and draft them in the Rule 5 draft. The lack of successful Rule 5 draft picks (you don't have to go back far to find an unsuccessful Twins' pick) means to me that there just aren't that many players out there who deserve to be promoted but aren't being promoted. Find me the list of players who got passed by in the Rule 5 draft and then turned out to be successful major league role players. It's just not a long list. We're talking about maybe a handful of players per year, if that.
The economic question is about expected marginal value. $50k plus a season’s worth of major-league minimum salary for a player who provides no margin above what you expect from players already in your own system (and the further loss of roster flexibility of being able to move such players up and down) has to deter some transactions.
If the player isn't any better than what is already in a team's farm system, why would he want to move to that team's farm system? I guess I don't see why teams should be able to freely swipe talent from teams who have done a good job of developing talent, so that they can acquire redundant pieces. From the player's perspective, he's blocked or redundant whether he gets drafted in the Rule 5 draft or not. The fee helps ensure that the player is actually moving to a better situation.
And just on a human level, you're talking about making guys pack up and move their family so that they can be a redundant piece in someone else's system instead of a redundant piece in the system that they know already. I fail to see how that would be of great service to the player.
If a player has spent 3 years on the 40-man, he’s probably already spent 5+ years in the minors and, therefore, been passed over for the Rule 5 draft at least once. Odds are high that a minor leaguer granted free agency will be in his mid- to late-20s and very unlikely ever to make it to the majors.
That may be true for college players, but if you're drafted out of high school (which many, many players are), you've been in the minors for 5+ years by the time you are 23, well before your prime years as a player.
Well, I agree that the set of directly affected players appears to be rather small. A few dozen per year, probably.
I suppose the way to think about this is to draw analogies to the way that publishers produce books. A single hit produces huge profits -- more than enough to pay for numerous duds. The publishers don't have a very good idea about which new authors will be successful (beyond the ghost-written, celebrity books, where the nominal authors typically get huge advances). So they publish a lot of titles, hoping that magic happens.
The development costs are, in fact, pretty low. Send a bunch of free copies to reviewers and send the author on a book tour with a lightning rod strapped to his/her head.
In the baseball case, the clubs spend some money on development. But, given that the minor league clubs are in fact owned by independent proprietors, who bear much of the financial risk associated with the minor league teams, the costs to the major league clubs are pretty small. This means the Rule 5 transaction fees relatively large, I claim.
it's also pretty hard to argue that the kids involved suffer much loss from being relocated. (1) they move almost every season anyway, climbing the ladder up the organization; (2) these are early-20s kids. A majority are single; their peers in the "real world" are changing jobs and locations at high rates as well; (3) for the typical minor leaguer, baseball is seasonal employment -- they relocate for the off-season.
Anyway. Interesting topic. I'd be interested to see some numbers on the time-in-minors distribution for major league players and on the counts of franchises that major leaguers played with during their minor-league careers.
Cameron's BB and HR rates seemed fine in the minors, plus 2 of his 10 walks this year have been intentional.
He's certainly surrounded by some strong bullpen arms. I wouldn't be surprised at continued success.
I guess you could classify it as fine, but 3.5 BB/9 in the minors isn't very good. It's not "OMG! he'll never succeed!!" but I'd have to list control as Cameron's biggest problem right now. For instance, the minorleaguebaseball.com MLE has his last year's performance translating to something like 7.53 K/9, 5.54 BB/9, 0.43 HR/9, which would give him an FIP of about 3.90 or so. That'd make him an average bullpen arm. Nothing special, really.
Whodathunk that Mickey Mantle would be helping buy your new hip.
Slowey went 7 innings and gave up 1 run today, raising his ERA.
What a bum. Baker 4 ever.