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Meet the Author: Jim Thielman (”Cool of the Evening”)

Posted by Rhubarb_Runner on Wednesday, July 18th, 2007 at 5:00 am

SBG note: I am very excited to have this interview with Jim Thielman, the author of "Cool of the Evening" here at the WGOM. My thanks to Rhubarb_Runner, who set this whole thing up.

Jim Thielman cool of the evening

Jim Thielman has very graciously agreed to answer a few questions for WGOM about Life (his), the Universe (baseball, of course!), and Everything (about writing).

Jim covers quite a bit about himself at his website here, and more about "Cool of the Evening" here, so I'm hoping you take a look at those links, and that what is found there will be augmented by the Q&A below. Also, as info, this from the jacket of "Cool of the Evening":

"Former sports writer Jim Thielman's coverage of the Twins spanned 1977 to 1993. In Cool of the Evening: The 1965 Minnesota Twins, he tells how men who had never won anything in baseball came together to create the first championship major-league season in Minnesota"
"Minnesota native Jim Thielman has worked at newspapers in Minnesota, Florida, and North Dakota. He has reported from events such as the National Football Conference Championship, the British and U.S. Opens, Rose Bowl, Major League Baseball's All-Star Game, post-season playoffs and World Series."
"The internationally published freelance writer has been employed by the Minnesota House of Representatives, University of Minnesota, Cargill Incorporated, and a Minneapolis law firm."

---------------------------

Where did you grow up? Go to school?

Born in Breckenridge, Minnesota, just like Cheryl Tiegs. Really. My other brush with fame was Dave Goltz went to school in Rothsay, about 15 miles away, and the guy who coached him ended up being my high school baseball coach. I guess Rothsay just wasn't big enough for him and he had to move to a big city like Breckenridge, which might have been 5,500 when I lived there.

College: Moorhead State, which I guess is Minnesota State-Moorhead or something now. They've changed the name 4 times since I was a freshman there.

How did you get started as a writer?

When you dislike algebra but get good grades on the essay tests, a light bulb should flick on. At 16, the goal was to be a big-league baseball player or to cover big-league baseball.

What format do you work in when you write?

Indifferent typists love the laptop backspace key. None of that Bill Clinton, handwritten memoir stuff for me.

How much time do you spend writing?

If this has some value for people thinking about writing a book, the writing on my book was two to six hours most nights during the work week, sometimes 10 hours on weekend days, spanning 7 months. That included research and interviews to complement the couple hundred hours of research that was done before the writing started.

But it's not the writing.

Someone once told Dashiell Hammett that a certain author claimed that he never re-wrote any of his work. Hammett replied, "It shows." Writing is the easy part; it's the re-writing that takes the time.

What was the extent of your work as a sportswriter in N.D.?

College kids working at metro dailies don't get plum assignments. You take inbound sports calls and turn the notes into 4-inch stories. The good assignments came after graduating from college and leaving Fargo.

What has been your favorite interview (if you don't count Ali, who definitely sounds like impressed you the most)?

Walter Payton was a rookie and we were probably the same age when that story came along. He had a classroom background in communications and we might have yapped about that as much as the game.

Sandy Koufax was memorable from the standpoint that he was humble to the point of near embarrassment that anyone cared to write down what he had to say.

Least favorite?

Covering the NFL was short term for me, but quickly became drudgery. Fran Tarkenton made a big contribution to that opinion.

Who would you most like to interview that you haven't yet?

Daily sports writing disappeared in the rear view mirror long ago, so it's not a common thought. It would have been cool to cover the Crosby golf tournament back when it was "the clambake" at Pebble Beach.

How would you compare the Twins club of mid-1960's to today's club? (performance, personalities, etc.)

Knowing the personalities requires being in the clubhouse regularly, so both the '65 and '07 club elude me there. This year's club is weaker offensively and on the mound than the '65 team, but this year's group is far better defensively, even if you factor the homefield turf.

The one (albeit minor) critique against "Cool of the Evening" was that it tends to wander a lot. What sort of challenges did you have pulling everything together into the book?

Hey, it was more linear than anything Faulkner ever wrote. What the hell was wrong with that guy?

Some advice for those who might want to write a book is to avoid a scenario like this:

The idea came to me on December 28, 2003. It needed to be in my hands for TwinsFest in January '05. One local author plain told me it was not possible for a first-time author to do the research, interviews, obtain images, navigate the publishing biz, find a publisher and also write the damn thing in about 355 days.

We made it with about 50 hours to spare.

But that shows any aspiring author: don't let people talk you out of it.

And it is quite likely more time would not have helped any perceived problems with the book. In this book, you've got 20, 30 personal stories, back story and a 185-game baseball season, so you're right: there were a lot of ponies to get into the corral. Regardless, "not enough time" is a pathetic crutch.

Are you pleased with how the whole "Cool of the Evening" writing experience turned out?

It was a blast, and the team of my youth turned out to be a bunch of good guys. Meeting them all at the Twins' reunion weekend was about as neat as life gets.

Some of them, Killebrew, Kaat and Oliva, and to a lesser degree Allison, Battey and Grant, had played cameos in my life now and then, but most of them never met me. Yet these men were extremely open and helpful. Just one example is Sam Mele, who gave me seven hours in two sessions. When you're 80-something, you might balk at devoting your remaining time to some stranger who's writing a book.

Are there things you would have done differently in hindsight?

Coming up with the idea a year earlier would have been brilliant.

Managing research time was a lesson. Players such as Mel Stottlemyre and Russ Snyder are basically a couple lines each in the book, but there was a combined 20 hours of research behind those lines. Was that wise time management?

What are your current project(s)?

Ideas for books stick to me like kindergarten art on a refrigerator. But when you work for a living and manage your time like Paris Hilton, you need to take a deep breath before starting in on such lunacy again.

I am doing an '87 Twins story for John Bonnes' (TwinsGeek) GameDay program that will be selling around the time of the Twins' reunion. I have an idea for another Twins' book, which seem to be in short supply --Bracken's Hrbek book has been doing well, so there is an audience for Twins' books -- but will have to find the time again. Working full time and writing a book is, um, interesting, is a good way to put it.

What would be your "dream project"?

Something involving Monaco, gambling and women.

Very nice website -- who maintains www.cooloftheevening.com for you?

Just me. One of my careers has involved this sort of button-pushing-chimp work.

Do you get many contacts/orders from it?

More advice for would-be authors: If you plan to write a book, build a Web site. Don't rely on the publisher. Have your own site. The Web is the great marketing equalizer for authors not named Stephen King.A Web site might just be the difference between getting decent quarterly checks from the publisher or having to steal lunch money from neighbor kids.

Favorite Baseball Movie?

"The Sandlot" nudges out "A League of Their Own" and "Bang the Drum Slowly."

Favorite Baseball Book?

Ball Four. It's the greatest book ever written, isn't it?.

Favorite Twin Past?

Killebrew.

Present?

Luis Castillo. It's fun to watch him limp around or forget which batter's box to get into. Hey, Luis, they brought in a lefty.

Favorite Ballpark(s)?

Fenway.

Favorite sports cliche

"Throwing the record book out the window" should become an Olympic sport.

If you could have dinner with any 3 people, who would they be?

Other than deceased family members, Harpo, Chico and Groucho Marx.

Tags: ,

This entry was posted by Rhubarb_Runner on Wednesday, July 18th, 2007 at 5:00 am and is filed under SBG Library. It is one of 83 entries by the author. We are no longer accepting Letters to the Editor on this post. Why?

51 LTEs

Rhubarb_Runner
Rhubarb_Runner replied on July 18th, 2007 at 6:23 am

Okay, even better: Jim has graciously agreed to stop by and answer any questions here as well! Feel free to post any questions or comments here (or at the "Cool of the Evening" post) and hopefully Jim will be able to add a response. Thanks, Jim!

 
SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 7:20 am

You mean born in Breckenridge, MN, just like the owner of this site, which would be me. I actually grew up in one of the small towns straight west of Wahpeton.

How did a small town Minnesota kid get a break and start covering the Twins? What was your biggest surprise when you started actually covering the team?

CoolOfTheEvening
CoolOfTheEvening replied on July 18th, 2007 at 8:15 am

I knew I wanted to cover baseball when I was a high school sophomore, so I had plenty of time to plan. I had two years' newspaper experience -- about 9 months on the night city desk and 15 on the sports desk -- before I graduated from college, so I knew something about the biz and had some bargaining power out of college, and I had a few clips. Once I got the beats I wanted I just dug in my spurs.

One revelation in general came when I was 22 and covering the Vikings. Looking around and seeing I was younger than everyone else in the press box, I had a good glimpse into my future and decided that when I was 40 I wouldn't be a broken down human covering sports. The hours stink and the pay is tough on mortgage payments. It's a job that can take its toll.

I don't recall anything surprising about covering the Twins, except at the time anyone with credentials could get a free drink and meal in the Twins' room, where Calvin Griffith and the Robertsons hung out before the game. MLB gradually eliminated that free Jim Beam policy, but at the '87 Series the Cardinals were still providing free Busch products. It was so damned cold there, though, you had to be a serious about your beer to want one.

 
 
Dread Pirate Will Young
Dread Pirate Will Young replied on July 18th, 2007 at 8:48 am

Jim, a couple of questions...

What was the overall feeling about the 1965 team's fundamentals? I know by the time Billy Martin was hired as manager before the 1969 season, everyone had pretty much accepted the team as having the worst fundamentals in all of baseball.

Second, how much contemporary credit did Billy Martin receive for Zoilo Versalles' MVP campaign? After the fact, it seems like everyone wanted to give all the credit in the world to Martin for coaxing the best out of Zoilo.

Thanks!

CoolOfTheEvening
CoolOfTheEvening replied on July 18th, 2007 at 12:09 pm

If by "fundamentals" we are talking base running and fielding:

The Twins’ defense was not markedly improved in ’65 based on my research, but many errors were meaningless and the pitching was better. That pitching was often able to overcome the times when the defense gave teams four outs an inning, and because the team was running the bases better it could also offset some of those errors.

Kaat suffered the most. He gave up more than 120 runs, but only about 80 were earned. That’s a lot of needless pitching from the stretch.

If people gave Martin credit after the fact it was because he deserve the credit. Martin decided to make Versalles a project before the fact. He had been Zoilo’s doubleplay partner and he knew the guy. Martin deserves all the credit for the Versalles success.

On the subject of Martin, John Turturro has got Martin nailed in the “Bronx is Burning” series on ESPN. If Turturro never met Martin, and he probably didn’t that’s a helluva remarkable performance.

Dread Pirate Will Young
Dread Pirate Will Young replied on July 18th, 2007 at 1:14 pm

Thanks for the reply! I've been doing a lot of reading of old microfilms and I had never realized how badly the team's fundamentals were considered by the end of Ermer's tenure as manager.

Another question: were there any other titles you were kicking around?

CoolOfTheEvening
CoolOfTheEvening replied on July 18th, 2007 at 5:27 pm

I just trashed a file from my computer with title ideas, and Cool of the Evening was the only main title idea written down.

It needed a subtitle, and there were about three of those, including "Buy this book or I'll kill your dog."

Looks like Michael Vick might be able to use that one now.

 
 
 
 
SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 9:18 am

You started covering the Twins in 1977, a year that saw the Twins lead the league in runs scored and have the MVP in Rod Carew. I was 12 years old in 1977 and the thought of Carew hitting .400 was an all-consuming thing for me. Two years later, my guy was playing for the California Angels after a nasty divorce from the Twins. What was it like covering Carew -- who apparently was a little prickly -- and what are your memories of the end of his Twins career as a player?

CoolOfTheEvening
CoolOfTheEvening replied on July 18th, 2007 at 12:10 pm

Carew was indeed a moody gent. He lockered next to Oliva, who would sometimes spruce up Rod’s poor p.r. habits by stepping in with a quote and a smile. Tony’s a Class A human being, and Rodney is a much changed man since his early Twins' days. He admits he was short with people at times.

I kept a stack of tear sheets that is only two inches high from all those years as a news hack, but a column about his departure is in the stack. My take on it was it was great to watch the guy play and good luck to him in California.

Those Angel fans saw the least of him. Twins’ fans saw the best of him. Carew didn’t have many full dance cards during his Angel days. He missed a lot of time, often when a really good lefty was pitching.

Rhubarb_Runner
Rhubarb_Runner replied on July 18th, 2007 at 1:33 pm

I grew up a huge Rod fan, and I remember him as being pretty moody, but he's greatly mellowed over the years. I was fortunate enough to be working in LA and able to see him hit his 3000th hit against the Twins at the Big A. I remember him esp. for his beautiful drag bunts (which were borderline outs when he was stepping out of the batters box as he was hitting the ball) and the way he so loosely held the bat with his back hand.

Like Ichiro, he had some power if he concentrated on using it, but he wasn't expected to provide the HRs so he excelled in putting the ball in play and getting the extra base. I'm glad to see the Twins taking advantage of his experience at least at Spring Training. As good as Tony-O is, I think Rod would be a much better communicator.

 
 
 
SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 9:19 am

Also, one of our readers, Jeff A., asks why Sam Mele didn't get another shot managing after his stint with the Twins. Any thoughts?

SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 9:26 am

I see that Will kind already answered that question by saying that Calvin took care of his guys and kept them on the payroll.

SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 10:40 am

I see that you've answered that question. Thanks!

 
CoolOfTheEvening
CoolOfTheEvening replied on July 18th, 2007 at 12:11 pm

Mele went to work with the Red Sox. Sam -- I can call him “Sam” because he kept calling me “Jimmy,” which made me feel like I was his bookie -- said Connie Mele, his wife, loved Minnesota, but hated the climate, and refused to live here year-round.

 
 
 
AMR
AMR replied on July 18th, 2007 at 9:55 am

I think my wife was born in Breckenridge and lived in Rothsay until she was one. Or something like that. Anyways, she as a baby in the general vicinity. And my sister-in-law just grraduated from MSU-Moorhead. Not a question, just chatter.

CoolOfTheEvening
CoolOfTheEvening replied on July 18th, 2007 at 12:12 pm

It sounds to me – and I’m sure members of the board are thinking the same -- like this whole wife thing is something you’re making up as you go along.

AMR
AMR replied on July 18th, 2007 at 12:31 pm

She lived in Wadena from whenever she left the Breckenridge area until she was in fourth grade, at which point she moved to the Alexandria area. I met her the summer before our senior years of high school in Morris and then we both went to college in the Twin Cities. We once took a roadtrip around the area, but the details of the history are a bit fuzzy. I do know that Rothsay has a giant Prairie Chicken and I think Breckenridge has a very large Mallard.

I believe that frightwig once followed the links from my old site to my wife's family site, so he can vouch for her at least being a very elaborate ruse if nothing more.

BTW, my first post should read "she was a baby in the general vicinity." I did not mean to imply that she "has" a baby in the area.

CoolOfTheEvening
CoolOfTheEvening replied on July 18th, 2007 at 4:52 pm

Nice try. I think we all recognize that whole scenario as the synopsis of an episode from the second season of Law & Order.

And it’s not a mallard. It’s a statue of Terry Forster.

 
 
 
 
SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 10:44 am

You covered the two World Championship teams. How does those two teams compare to the 1965 team? How much does that 2-0 loss to an all-time great diminish that team compared to the championship teams that won fewer (and in the case of the 1987 team a lot fewer) games in the regular season?

SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 12:31 pm

Or more simply put, was the 1965 team the greatest Twins team ever? Souhan wrote recently that "[p]erhaps never before have the Twins possessed so much frontline talent." I would have to think that the 1965 had more "frontline" talent with Killer, Oliva, Allison, Kaat, and Grant. Throw in an MVP season from the shortstop and that has to be the best team ever... of course, they had injuries to some of that talent, Killer most notably, but in the end this had to be the best team in franchise history both from a frontline talent standpoint and from the standpoint of depth.

 
CoolOfTheEvening
CoolOfTheEvening replied on July 18th, 2007 at 4:55 pm

My vote is the ’65 team would whip the ’87 Twinks. That ’91 team was a good club.

In a broad context, though, the ’65 and ’87 teams struck uranium for fans, give or take an atomic number or two.
Those two teams are similar from a fan standpoint.

In ’65, the state finally had a big-league ballclub, but it didn’t have a championship team, and being fans have brief honeymoons with sports franchises it can be said that by ’65 people were getting ornery. Midwesterners wanted a winner, but ’64 had been such a dismal season people had begun to pray that someone would invent ESPN so they could watch Australian Rules Football.

Of course, in ’87, Minnesota was just a vast collection of recent losers – from Walter Mondale to the Vikings and their Super Bowl failures. Then they won the gonfalon, according to my Sports Writing Synonym for Winning phrase book.

So in a sense the ’65 and ’87 teams had a rags-to-riches impact on the people in Minnesota and the surrounding states.
What’s funny about that ’87 won-lost record is Whitey Herzog and the Cardinal fans – and others -- bitched about the Twins’ win total, and then last year the Cards win the Series with fewer regular season wins than the ’87 Twins. In fact, the Cards didn’t win a single game all season last year. You can look it up.

As for losing to the Dodgers, I don’t think it diminishes the ’65 Twins, it just doesn’t make for a “The Natural” ending, if we’re talking the movie, not literature.

SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 5:26 pm

I had an occasion last year to talk to the author of Viva El Birdos, a popular Cardinals blog shortly after the 2006 World Series. About 20 seconds into the conversation, I said that I never wanted to hear another Cardinals fan whine about 1987. He laughed (which is what you do when your team just won the World Series) and claimed that he hadn't even put that together, knowing that I was a Twins fan. Uh huh.

The '91 team had a rags to riches element, too -- worst to first. I will concede though, that it wasn't as stunning as the 1987 team. I didn't actually think the Twins would actually win the 1987 World Series until Willie McGee grounded out to Gaetti. That '91 team was real good. I was convinced they would win the World Series by about the end of July. I even called the three game sweep in Toronto immediately after the game 2 loss in the ALCS. My friends looked at me like I was crazy, but I never doubted that team from about June 1 on.

I would have like to have been there, though, to experience a Twins team winning 100 games.

 
 
 
brianS
brianS replied on July 18th, 2007 at 1:17 pm

Jim, thanks for participating here!

What were your thoughts then (the way-back machine) -- and how have your thoughts changed if at all (e.g., from researching the book) -- about how the Twins moved Killebrew around during the 1960s. Here's a guy who was an All-Star 3b in 1959 at age 23, who then split time at 1st and 3rd in 1960-61, played the OF in 1962-64, back to splitting time between 1st and 3rd in 1965-71.

was he really such a defensive liability as to justify so many moves? Do you think it hurt his offensive productivity?

CarterHayes
CarterHayes replied on July 18th, 2007 at 1:55 pm

I've always wondered this as well, particularly in light of the treatment Cuddyer got and how he responded when they finally quit jerking him around.

 
CoolOfTheEvening
CoolOfTheEvening replied on July 18th, 2007 at 4:58 pm

My assessment based on research, stats and interviews is Killebrew was better defensively than any other option, so that’s part of the reason he was moved. Injuries played a role in some of the moves, the team’s personnel in others.

Then-Indians’ outfielder Leon Wagner made a comment that I use in the book about Killebrew’s fielding. He praised Killebrew.
Fans then, and SABRmatcians now, might view his fielding as poor, but ballplayers look at things differently.

He was thought of as a good fielder at first base and passable at third. He was known for a good infield arm and soft hands. As a left-fielder, he was more of a liability than either at first or third. He had leg hinges that creaked and a weak outfield arm.

Killebrew has said this movement might have affected his offense a little, but back then most guys just wanted to play somewhere. He plain said when we talked for the book that there were many times he played when he probably shouldn’t have, but he didn’t want to risk losing his job, hard as that might be for us to believe.

brianS
brianS replied on July 18th, 2007 at 6:31 pm

I swear that I remember reading a description somewhere (sports writer/scout/baseball professional type, not some blogger in his mother's basement) claiming that Killebrew "threw like a girl" -- and this was way before Jennie Finch and Cat Osterman, so that was a slam.

SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 6:34 pm

and this was way before Shannon Stewart, Jennie Finch and Cat Osterman, so that was a slam.

Fixed that for you.

 
 
 
 
E-6
E-6 replied on July 18th, 2007 at 1:22 pm

What was your take on Lyman Bostock? It's hard to believe it's been 29 years since he was murdered. And am I wrong for thinking there is a book in his story, or would it be too much of a downer?

Might I add, great answers and +10 for the comment regarding AMR's "wife." It's a real treat.

CoolOfTheEvening
CoolOfTheEvening replied on July 18th, 2007 at 5:06 pm

There's a piece on my Web site about him that first appeared in the renegade Twins' program Gameday sold outside the Dome.

The downer part of the story doesn't mean it's not a workable manuscript.

The '65 team's WS loss was one thing that made me balk briefly about writing my book: Do people want to read about a team that didn’t win?

But in my first four hours of research I uncovered a half-dozen stories I had never heard, but were interesting to me, and being the first rule of writing is to entertain yourself I proceeded. I also figured if this stuff interested me, it would interest enough other people to make it worth my time.

And after that early research a sense of urgency appeared in my garage, sat down behind my car and put a ‘tater in the tail pipe. Like that hasn’t happened to you.

I knew these sources were not getting any younger. Nor was I. Or Lindsey Lohan, for that matter. Two of my sources died during the research and writing, and Earl Battey and John Klippstein had died the year before. Jim Lemon died last year.

It gets a little tougher to mine for those nuggets of truth once the cast is gone and all that is left are newspaper accounts and legend. Sure, there is some film and video from that era, but sports writing isn’t about sports, it’s about people, and once there is no one left to tell the stories about Camilo Pascual stealing dinnerware you have lost a good deal of the sense for who these men were.

Bostock's life is certainly a good story, and his survivors including his mother could still be around.

 
 
CarterHayes
CarterHayes replied on July 18th, 2007 at 1:54 pm

Jim, I remember when you contributed to TwinsGeek's old "Twins Territory" site back when it was up, and I always enjoyed your posts and the patient instruction and constructive commentary I got from both you and David Wintheiser. I'm glad to see this interview posted and hope you'll stop around the WGOM frequently in the future.

I was wondering if you could address Bob Allison a bit for me. I was far to young to ever see him play, and I've always wondered where he gets placed in the canon of Twins greats. To me it seems like he's faded more and more into the background behind his bigger-name contemporaries (Killebrew, Oliva, and Carew), then the Class of '82 guys (Hrbek, Gaetti, and Bruno), Puckett, and now some of the guys on the current squad. I suppose this has something to do with his premature death, but even then, it seems like he's always been The Grey Man of the franchise since the move to Minnesota. I've heard Bob was a pretty talented natural athlete and a great competitor (something about being one of the most feared baserunners of his day?).

So, the questions:

Without taking away from anything you've done in your book (which I will be reading this summer), could you put Bob Allison in perspective for the generations of fans that weren't lucky enough to see him? Is there anyone in the sport today that reminds you of him? Do you think he's been suitably honored by the team? Should his number be retired in tribute to what he meant to a franchise getting a fresh start? Based on what I know, which is not much, admittedly, I think there should be a #4 - and really, a #36 - on the wall in left and a couple more murals hanging in the Dome's upper deck.

Many thanks to Jim for taking time out to answer all these questions (from both Rhu_Ru and the Nation as a whole). And as always, a tip o' the cap to Rhu_Ru for the whole Library series.

Dread Pirate Will Young
Dread Pirate Will Young replied on July 18th, 2007 at 2:34 pm

CarterHayes, I disagree that Allison has been Earl Battey'd. As a lifelong Twins fan who wasn't even born until the 80's, Allison was always held in high regard in everything I ever heard or read.

If you neutralize his Twins stats (throwing out his first three seasons) to a 750 run environment, and in 10 seasons you get a .267 batting average, 225 homeruns, 701 RBI's, and 751 runs created. Compare that to Hrbek (who has the weakest case of the retired numbers) and you get .282, 297, 1112 and 1120. Pretty similar numbers spread over three extra seasons but without the 2 World Series titles and the hometown boy attachment. I don't want the Twins to become like the Yankees and have a ton of numbers retired - save it for the truly elite.

SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 2:45 pm

For Jim's reference, the term Earl Battey'd here means forgotten. I once wrote about Battey, saying that he was at this point still the best catcher in Twins history, but that when Mauer's career was over, he'd be forgotten. Certain readers took exception to the idea that Battey was or would be forgotten and the term has been used as a good natured ribbing to yours truly ever since.

 
E-6
E-6 replied on July 18th, 2007 at 3:15 pm

I don’t want the Twins to become like the Yankees and have a ton of numbers retired - save it for the truly elite.

10 of the 16 Yanks with retired numbers landed in Cooperstown. Those who didn't: Roger Maris, Billy Martin, Elston Howard, Thurman Munson, Don Mattingly, and Ron Guidry.

brianS
brianS replied on July 18th, 2007 at 3:37 pm

see, you proved SBG's point. What a list of schmucks.

E-6
E-6 replied on July 18th, 2007 at 3:55 pm

Lousy with Schmendricks.

 
 
Dread Pirate Will Young
Dread Pirate Will Young replied on July 18th, 2007 at 3:52 pm

But the Twins have had approximately sixty fewer seasons to employ those greats. I never hear any Yankee fans clamoring to have Roy White's number retired.

brianS
brianS replied on July 18th, 2007 at 3:55 pm

Bob Allison:Harmon Killebrew::Roy White: ??

 
CarterHayes
CarterHayes replied on July 18th, 2007 at 4:20 pm

But the Twins have had approximately sixty fewer seasons to employ those greats.

Nothing is stopping the Twins from acknowledging the Washington Senators. The Braves honor Warren Spahn and Eddie Mathews, the Giants recognize Bill Terry, Mel Ott, Carl Hubbell, John McGraw, and Christy Mathewson, and the Dodgers pay tribute to Roy Campanella, Pee Wee Reese, and Duke Snider (and of course Jackie, but that doesn't really count anymore).

That Walter Johnson goes unrecognized by his organization is a cryin' shame, and guys like Goose Goslin and Sam Rice deserve some recognition, too. When the Nationals laid claim to the entire baseball history of Washington D.C. that struck me as horribly wrong. I'm glad they're giving some due to the greats of Washington's past franchises, but anyone before 1960 belongs to the Twins organization. And the Twins aren't alone in doing this - the A's are guilty of not honoring their pre-Oakland greats as well.

brianS
brianS replied on July 18th, 2007 at 6:33 pm

The A's DO however, acknowledge their pre-Oakland World Series titles, with big banners in the Upper Deck.

The Twins could do that ;-)

(LTEs wont nest below this level)
CarterHayes
CarterHayes replied on July 18th, 2007 at 9:26 pm

That I did not know. What a curious practice. Any idea what that's all about?

 
brianS
brianS replied on July 18th, 2007 at 11:30 pm

Gotta do something with the upper deck at the Mausoleum, CH!

The pre-Oakland banners (big, circular emblems with just the years in them) are in right field. The Oakland ones are on the third-base side (so I could see them, but with a little effort, from where the boy and I were sitting). I think they were actually tarps covering the upper deck seats.

 
 
 
 
 
CarterHayes
CarterHayes replied on July 18th, 2007 at 4:00 pm

As a lifelong Twins fan who wasn’t even born until the 80’s, Allison was always held in high regard in everything I ever heard or read.

We're about the same age, I think, and like you, what I heard about Allison from older fans when I was growing up was always highly positive. I'm not trying to say that Allison hasn't been held in high regard, but just that it seems his position in the hagiography isn't as well known to many fans our age and younger who grew up with their earliest memories revolving around the Class of '82.

I don’t want the Twins to become like the Yankees and have a ton of numbers retired - save it for the truly elite.

I think this is a good practice in general, though as E-6 points out, 10 of the 16 Yanquis are in the HoF anyway. But if Bob Allison is as highly regarded as we've both come to understand, then why isn't he fit to have his number retired. His stats might not stack up in a neutralized environment, but I'm not sure that entirely explains why he shouldn't have his number retired. Bob's contributions in the early years of the Twins' tenure in Minnesota certainly brought the team a ton of fans and enduring appeal, and I don't think something like that is easily quantified.

SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 4:17 pm

I believe he is a member of the Twins Hall of Fame. Of course, that's not exactly an exclusive club.

I'm generally not a big fan of retiring numbers and I'm not so sure about Hrbek's number being up there, but at least we didn't retire Harold Baines' number while he was still active and playing for another club like a certain ball team in NE Illinois. Baines' number was retired in 1989, shortly after he was traded to Texas. He played twelve more seasons after that, including two more stints with the club in question. Baines was traded six times, including once more by the club in question. He has to be the only player in history who was traded six times and had his number retired.

CarterHayes
CarterHayes replied on July 18th, 2007 at 4:24 pm

Good point, SBG. I forgot about the Twins' HoF. Maybe there will be a nice Bob Allison display in the new ballpark that brings him into the light a bit more. If so, I'll back down on it.

 
 
 
 
CoolOfTheEvening
CoolOfTheEvening replied on July 18th, 2007 at 5:17 pm

Allison and Killebrew were the Mantle and Mays of the franchise in the early '60s. Allison really didn't want to move here at all, he liked D.C. Killebrew was concerned about the Met and the cold weather, but Allison comes across as the most vocal about the move, based on my research.

It's important to remember that with no free agency back then the mainstays of a franchise only moved along if the team wanted it that way, so there is a nucleus of the '65 team that also played for years on either side of '65. Because Allison was part of that group, he's a fond memory for older Twins' fans.

Certainly, death is hard on a guy's image, and the fact Allison has missed about a decade of appearances causes him to fall from the limelight. However, the U of M has a Bob Allison Ataxia Research Center and the annual January Twin Cities BBWAA awards for the past two years have been held in conjunction with BAARC's big fund-raiser. There are a lot of kids who attend this with their parents, so the more alert ones become aware of the man and his unfortunate end.

Calvin always maintained Allison should be in the Hall of Fame. That's a stretch -- he had a relatively brief career -- and you can't retire every number. I don't think Bob Allison stories will disappear entirely any time soon, and you're right about his baserunning. No one wanted to get in the guy's way on the pivot at second.

 
 
SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 5:29 pm

Did you happen to catch Harmon Killebrew night on David Letterman's show several years ago? What a wonderful show that was. I've never figured out what caused Letterman to devote his whole show to Killebrew, but was that ever fun.

CoolOfTheEvening
CoolOfTheEvening replied on July 18th, 2007 at 10:03 pm

Wow, someone's on a merry-go-round of years that is spinning faster than mine, yet he's unaware.

I've got that on videotape, which is the first hint as to how old it is. February 11, 1986, before the Twins won their first pennant.

No kidding.

All those who weren't alive then, raise your hands.

Letterman chose four celebrities, I believe, to do short films. Killebrew ended up getting bumped when the films ran long, so Dave turned a show into Harmon Killebrew Night. The film was just part of the night, in which LeRoy Neiman painted a mural and Charlie Pride, who could not get to New York because of a snowstorm, sang a song over the telephone.

Kaat and Allison were there, and 'brew really acquitted himself very well.

Andrew
Andrew replied on July 18th, 2007 at 11:11 pm

Mom's 5 months pregnant at that point.

And thanks for answering all the questions. It's been a real interesting experience.

 
SBG
SBG replied on July 18th, 2007 at 11:21 pm

I was 21 then and I was in college in Fargo watching that episode.

 
bjhess
bjhess replied on July 19th, 2007 at 12:29 pm

I was 9, and probably watching Letterman occasionally at that point, but I never saw it. I'd love to see the episode thrown onto YouTube or some such...

 
 
 
brianS
brianS replied on July 18th, 2007 at 6:36 pm

Not Letterman, but a little taste of two Twins' greats:

 

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