Comments on: Before my time… http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/ Your Daily Source for Half-Baked Crap Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:56:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: brianS http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-96676 brianS Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:28:26 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-96676 can't answer that one, but here are the SH by year numbers (and AL rank in runs scored) under TK and RG, respectively, starting with TK's first full season <ol> <li>1987. 47, 8</li> <li>1988. 37, 5</li> <li>1989. 51, 2</li> <li>1990. 40, 12</li> <li>1991. 44, 4</li> <li>1992. 46, 3</li> <li>1993. 27, 11</li> <li>1994. 22, 6</li> <li>1995. 18, 10</li> <li>1996. 20, 8</li> <li>1997. 20, 10</li> <li>1998. 18, 11</li> <li>1999. 24, 14</li> <li>2000. 24, 13</li> <li>2001. 25, 8</li> </ol> <ol> <li>2002. 34, 9</li> <li>2003. 42, 6</li> <li>2004. 46, 10</li> <li>2005. 42, 14</li> <li>2006. 31, 8</li> <li>2007. 33, 12</li> </ol> again, FWIW. can't answer that one, but here are the SH by year numbers (and AL rank in runs scored) under TK and RG, respectively, starting with TK's first full season

  1. 1987. 47, 8
  2. 1988. 37, 5
  3. 1989. 51, 2
  4. 1990. 40, 12
  5. 1991. 44, 4
  6. 1992. 46, 3
  7. 1993. 27, 11
  8. 1994. 22, 6
  9. 1995. 18, 10
  10. 1996. 20, 8
  11. 1997. 20, 10
  12. 1998. 18, 11
  13. 1999. 24, 14
  14. 2000. 24, 13
  15. 2001. 25, 8
  1. 2002. 34, 9
  2. 2003. 42, 6
  3. 2004. 46, 10
  4. 2005. 42, 14
  5. 2006. 31, 8
  6. 2007. 33, 12

again, FWIW.

]]> By: DaveJ http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-96669 DaveJ Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:03:49 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-96669 Bill James, in one of his first Abstracts, described Martin's running game with the A's as resembling a big green and gold pinwheel. I thought that was poetic. (This entry confirms that I've officially entered my senile years, remembering minutia from decades past.) Bill James, in one of his first Abstracts, described Martin's running game with the A's as resembling a big green and gold pinwheel. I thought that was poetic. (This entry confirms that I've officially entered my senile years, remembering minutia from decades past.)

]]> By: Jeff A http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-95077 Jeff A Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:48:39 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-95077 My recollection is that TK didn't bunt a whole lot, period. He did use the squeeze once in a while, but not very often. My recollection is that TK didn't bunt a whole lot, period. He did use the squeeze once in a while, but not very often.

]]> By: Jeff A http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-95074 Jeff A Thu, 13 Sep 2007 18:47:00 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-95074 It's also interesting (to me, anyway) to consider that in basketball and football, it's not uncommon for head coaches to have coached in college at some point in their careers, either as a head coach or an assistant. When is the last time a manager was hired who had been a college baseball coach? It's also interesting (to me, anyway) to consider that in basketball and football, it's not uncommon for head coaches to have coached in college at some point in their careers, either as a head coach or an assistant. When is the last time a manager was hired who had been a college baseball coach?

]]> By: Moss http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94924 Moss Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:41:12 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94924 Moss isn't suggesting that it should be done differently, rather that it is a system that by its nature isn't really workable. If RG were getting paid more than Johan, Moss would puke. Moss isn't suggesting that it should be done differently, rather that it is a system that by its nature isn't really workable. If RG were getting paid more than Johan, Moss would puke.

]]> By: Moss http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94923 Moss Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:39:25 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94923 Dunno...Moss wasn't around from '94 to '01 and doesn't really recall. Nevertheless, for THIS offense, there have been times when it would have been a good call but Gardy has not done it at all this year, as far as Moss knows. Dunno...Moss wasn't around from '94 to '01 and doesn't really recall.

Nevertheless, for THIS offense, there have been times when it would have been a good call but Gardy has not done it at all this year, as far as Moss knows.

]]> By: E-6 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94922 E-6 Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:26:36 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94922 Good stuff 'wig. Wish I'd found yer blog before you put it on the shelf. Good stuff 'wig. Wish I'd found yer blog before you put it on the shelf.

]]> By: ubelmann http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94909 ubelmann Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:38:44 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94909 Did TK use the squeeze bunt much? Did TK use the squeeze bunt much?

]]> By: ubelmann http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94908 ubelmann Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:37:16 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94908 <i>In what other profession is the manager-level talent paid a whole lot less than those he manages? How is that supposed to work?</i> I think it makes sense for sports, though. How many people can do what Alex Rodriguez does? How many people can do what Ron Gardenhire does? If management started demanding salaries on the same scale as the players, you can bet that teams would start going outside the industry to find managers. The players wouldn't like it at first, but eventually they would deal with it. Who likes their boss anyway? In what other profession is the manager-level talent paid a whole lot less than those he manages? How is that supposed to work?

I think it makes sense for sports, though. How many people can do what Alex Rodriguez does? How many people can do what Ron Gardenhire does? If management started demanding salaries on the same scale as the players, you can bet that teams would start going outside the industry to find managers. The players wouldn't like it at first, but eventually they would deal with it. Who likes their boss anyway?

]]> By: Moss http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94892 Moss Thu, 13 Sep 2007 01:25:44 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94892 Right on. Every other sport has coaches that were not pro players. Baseball? They're non-existent. Hell, even Tony LaRussa, who is sort of the odd-man-out if you lined up all the managerial backgrounds, was even a ballplayer. Let's examine basketball. If basketball worked like baseball, Trent Tucker would be coaching an NBA team and Flip Saunders would be lucky to have a booth job. And no one EVER would have heard of Lawrence Frank, because he'd be on the outside looking in. That being said, management in pro sports is so messed up anyway. In what other profession is the manager-level talent paid a whole lot less than those he manages? How is that supposed to work? Right on. Every other sport has coaches that were not pro players. Baseball? They're non-existent. Hell, even Tony LaRussa, who is sort of the odd-man-out if you lined up all the managerial backgrounds, was even a ballplayer.

Let's examine basketball. If basketball worked like baseball, Trent Tucker would be coaching an NBA team and Flip Saunders would be lucky to have a booth job. And no one EVER would have heard of Lawrence Frank, because he'd be on the outside looking in.

That being said, management in pro sports is so messed up anyway. In what other profession is the manager-level talent paid a whole lot less than those he manages? How is that supposed to work?

]]> By: Algonad http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94890 Algonad Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:49:07 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94890 I second everything Frightwig said. The system isn't set up to get the most talented manager. If you need a good first hand account of the workings of baseball - <em>Ball Four</em> is an excellent source. I second everything Frightwig said. The system isn't set up to get the most talented manager.

If you need a good first hand account of the workings of baseball - Ball Four is an excellent source.

]]> By: frightwig http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94873 frightwig Wed, 12 Sep 2007 22:16:22 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94873 <em>I am continually suprised how many idiots have risen to the pinnacle of their profession.</em> It's just the Peter Principle in action. An idiot might even get to be President if he has the means and connections. I think baseball creates a particular problem for itself because it's essentially still an Old Boys' Club. To be a manager, first you need to have been a pro ballplayer who made some friends in high places. Preferably, you're a Catcher or middle infielder, and they'd rather you're not a Pitcher. You could have a degree in management, a deep understanding of statistics, game theory, and baseball, and a great way with people--it really doesn't matter. You're never managing the Twins or any other big league team unless you've played some pro ball. Then you either need to have high name recognition so someone will give you a chance to manage shortly after you retire from playing, or perhaps the personality for broadcasting which might raise your profile, or else you should be willing to spend years managing in the minors in hopes that your organization might eventually promote you to the top instead of hiring some big name, while waiting for some famous retreads to get a 3rd or 4th crack at the job before some club is ready to try an unknown. If you're really, really lucky, when you do finally get that 1st chance, your hiring will coincide with the rise of a crop of young talent that's just about ready to break out. More likely, you're the third choice of some cheap or desperate club in deep rebuilding mode, and you hope that you can do just enough with the team so that your reputation isn't permanenty stained by the stinking mess. If the team shows some spark of improvement under your watch, maybe you'll get added to the pool of retreads after you're fired. But if you happen to be Cito Gaston, I don't know what to tell you. Is it really any wonder that a lot of teams actually are managed by unqualified idiots? What exactly are Ron Gardenhire's qualifications to manage, anyway? He played pro ball, badly. He has a gregarious personality. He paid his dues managing in the minors, before TK asked him to be the Twins' 3rd base coach, where he spent a decade hitting groundball practice and deciding whether to wave runners home. Finally, he was fortunate that the top job became available with an org that preferred to hire from within, when Paul Molitor didn't want it because Contraction hung over the club, just as a homegrown crop of young talent was on the rise and the dominant team in the division was scrapping down for a rebuild. That about sums it up, doesn't it? I am continually suprised how many idiots have risen to the pinnacle of their profession.

It's just the Peter Principle in action. An idiot might even get to be President if he has the means and connections.

I think baseball creates a particular problem for itself because it's essentially still an Old Boys' Club. To be a manager, first you need to have been a pro ballplayer who made some friends in high places. Preferably, you're a Catcher or middle infielder, and they'd rather you're not a Pitcher. You could have a degree in management, a deep understanding of statistics, game theory, and baseball, and a great way with people--it really doesn't matter. You're never managing the Twins or any other big league team unless you've played some pro ball.

Then you either need to have high name recognition so someone will give you a chance to manage shortly after you retire from playing, or perhaps the personality for broadcasting which might raise your profile, or else you should be willing to spend years managing in the minors in hopes that your organization might eventually promote you to the top instead of hiring some big name, while waiting for some famous retreads to get a 3rd or 4th crack at the job before some club is ready to try an unknown.

If you're really, really lucky, when you do finally get that 1st chance, your hiring will coincide with the rise of a crop of young talent that's just about ready to break out. More likely, you're the third choice of some cheap or desperate club in deep rebuilding mode, and you hope that you can do just enough with the team so that your reputation isn't permanenty stained by the stinking mess. If the team shows some spark of improvement under your watch, maybe you'll get added to the pool of retreads after you're fired. But if you happen to be Cito Gaston, I don't know what to tell you.

Is it really any wonder that a lot of teams actually are managed by unqualified idiots? What exactly are Ron Gardenhire's qualifications to manage, anyway?

He played pro ball, badly. He has a gregarious personality. He paid his dues managing in the minors, before TK asked him to be the Twins' 3rd base coach, where he spent a decade hitting groundball practice and deciding whether to wave runners home. Finally, he was fortunate that the top job became available with an org that preferred to hire from within, when Paul Molitor didn't want it because Contraction hung over the club, just as a homegrown crop of young talent was on the rise and the dominant team in the division was scrapping down for a rebuild. That about sums it up, doesn't it?

]]> By: Moss http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94425 Moss Wed, 12 Sep 2007 01:45:20 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94425 Moss isn't sold on the steal of home, but here's one that SHOULD be used more often by the Twins -- squeeze bunt (safety, or possibly suicide). Gardy loves to bunt when he needs to get a runner from second to third with no outs. But he hasn't used it to get a runner in, in Moss' recollection. Not even in a situation where it would make perfect sense. (Tyner bunted the other day to get a run in, but he was bunting for a hit as there were 2 outs.) There have been lots of opportunities, but Gardy doesn't have that in the 'tool-box. Strikeout-throwout DP? Yes. Squeeze bunt? No. Moss isn't sold on the steal of home, but here's one that SHOULD be used more often by the Twins -- squeeze bunt (safety, or possibly suicide).

Gardy loves to bunt when he needs to get a runner from second to third with no outs. But he hasn't used it to get a runner in, in Moss' recollection. Not even in a situation where it would make perfect sense. (Tyner bunted the other day to get a run in, but he was bunting for a hit as there were 2 outs.)

There have been lots of opportunities, but Gardy doesn't have that in the 'tool-box. Strikeout-throwout DP? Yes. Squeeze bunt? No.

]]> By: Moss http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94423 Moss Wed, 12 Sep 2007 01:41:48 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94423 gesundheit! gesundheit!

]]> By: Rhubarb_Runner http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94390 Rhubarb_Runner Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:20:22 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94390 Vielen dank, Herr CH! Vielen dank, Herr CH!

]]> By: CarterHayes http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94383 CarterHayes Tue, 11 Sep 2007 23:53:29 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94383 BTW, herzliche Glückwünsche zum Geburtstag from one Virgo to another, Rhu_Ru. BTW, herzliche Glückwünsche zum Geburtstag from one Virgo to another, Rhu_Ru.

]]> By: davidwatts http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94382 davidwatts Tue, 11 Sep 2007 23:27:54 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94382 I dont think I have ever seen a double steal but it would be cool I think teams should try to steal home more. Who cares if it works about. 00006% of the time. Add some excitement at the end of a drab season! I dont think I have ever seen a double steal
but it would be cool

I think teams should try to steal home more. Who cares if it works about. 00006% of the time. Add some excitement at the end of a drab season!

]]> By: Banjo http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94366 Banjo Tue, 11 Sep 2007 22:02:31 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94366 I am thoroughly convinced that manager bashing is the 2nd national pastime (at least in the baseball blogosphere.) I am continually suprised how many idiots have risen to the pinnacle of their profession. It would be a great series, regardless if it was penned by one or more of the geezers and or the young guns who roam these halls. I am thoroughly convinced that manager bashing is the 2nd national pastime (at least in the baseball blogosphere.) I am continually suprised how many idiots have risen to the pinnacle of their profession.

It would be a great series, regardless if it was penned by one or more of the geezers and or the young guns who roam these halls.

]]> By: brianS http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94365 brianS Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:55:37 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94365 Isn't it challenging enough to hope for them reaching base consecutively?? Isn't it challenging enough to hope for them reaching base consecutively??

]]> By: CarterHayes http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94361 CarterHayes Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:40:03 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94361 If you're interested in making it multi-Citizen, off-season should work fairly well for my school schedule. Not sure what I bring to the table, but if there's enough interest in this as a series, I'll pitch in with whatever I've got. If you're interested in making it multi-Citizen, off-season should work fairly well for my school schedule. Not sure what I bring to the table, but if there's enough interest in this as a series, I'll pitch in with whatever I've got.

]]> By: drake33 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94360 drake33 Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:38:37 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94360 wow. I now have a new goal at a baseball game. To see a triple steal. Punto, Tyner and Bartlett. wow. I now have a new goal at a baseball game. To see a triple steal. Punto, Tyner and Bartlett.

]]> By: brianS http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94325 brianS Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:31:21 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94325 plus, he got him cheap. Bert and a Dead Man Walking for Smalley, Cubbage, a Bill Singer rental, 22-year old RH prospect Jim Gideon and $250K in 1976. plus, he got him cheap.

Bert and a Dead Man Walking for Smalley, Cubbage, a Bill Singer rental, 22-year old RH prospect Jim Gideon and $250K in 1976.

]]> By: Rhubarb_Runner http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94323 Rhubarb_Runner Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:22:42 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94323 I'd be all over that. Might make for a great off-season series of posts, maybe multi-Citizen, even. I know at least 2 of my SI issues deal with former Twins managers (Lavaghetto and Martin), so I could post those. I'd be all over that. Might make for a great off-season series of posts, maybe multi-Citizen, even. I know at least 2 of my SI issues deal with former Twins managers (Lavaghetto and Martin), so I could post those.

]]> By: Rhubarb_Runner http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94317 Rhubarb_Runner Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:00:35 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94317 It was my understanding that Carew and Cobb are tied with the AL (and MLB) single season record with 7. I'd post back-up info on that, except that I'm already spending too much non-quality work time today (sorry). It was my understanding that Carew and Cobb are tied with the AL (and MLB) single season record with 7. I'd post back-up info on that, except that I'm already spending too much non-quality work time today (sorry).

]]> By: Rhubarb_Runner http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94315 Rhubarb_Runner Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:57:36 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94315 Yeah, I knew it was late season, but didn't remember it being that late. I know Carew was pretty peeved, because he should have had the single season record all his own if this one had been called correctly. Also, turns out, would have tied the score. Yeah, I knew it was late season, but didn't remember it being that late. I know Carew was pretty peeved, because he should have had the single season record all his own if this one had been called correctly.

Also, turns out, would have tied the score.

]]> By: Dread Pirate Will Young http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94313 Dread Pirate Will Young Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:34:10 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94313 I have read 2 of the 3 bios and Zumstag's chapter. Martin is such an interesting guy. I have read 2 of the 3 bios and Zumstag's chapter. Martin is such an interesting guy.

]]> By: SBG http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94311 SBG Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:29:39 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94311 Well, okay. Well, okay.

]]> By: CarterHayes http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94310 CarterHayes Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:27:31 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94310 Yeah, but if my nephew was a young shortstop with a 122 OPS+, I'd probably start him, too. Particularly when my next best option was Larry Wolfe. Yeah, but if my nephew was a young shortstop with a 122 OPS+, I'd probably start him, too. Particularly when my next best option was Larry Wolfe.

]]> By: SBG http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94307 SBG Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:09:43 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94307 Mauch favored <a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/smallro02.shtml" rel="nofollow">his nephew</a> and started him at shortstop. Mauch favored his nephew and started him at shortstop.

]]> By: CarterHayes http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94306 CarterHayes Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:52:38 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94306 Yeah, I kind of figured there was some of that considering it hasn't exactly been a lifetime appointment. Still, after reading what Billy Martin was up to in 1969, I'm convinced there's enough interesting material in Twins managerial history to make a pretty darn good blog series. What you seem to suggest is that one of the younger members of the Nation is better qualified to actually author such a series, considering it's rather hard to be biased against Cookie, or Mauch, or Quilici if you weren't around to throw stuff at the radio or TV when he had a brain-fart. Then again, the input of the more seasoned members of the Nation is every bit as valuable as a lack of bias from a research standpoint. Yeah, I kind of figured there was some of that considering it hasn't exactly been a lifetime appointment. Still, after reading what Billy Martin was up to in 1969, I'm convinced there's enough interesting material in Twins managerial history to make a pretty darn good blog series.

What you seem to suggest is that one of the younger members of the Nation is better qualified to actually author such a series, considering it's rather hard to be biased against Cookie, or Mauch, or Quilici if you weren't around to throw stuff at the radio or TV when he had a brain-fart. Then again, the input of the more seasoned members of the Nation is every bit as valuable as a lack of bias from a research standpoint.

]]> By: E-6 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94304 E-6 Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:50:01 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94304 and one of 'em was named Cookie... and one of 'em was named Cookie...

]]> By: ubelmann http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94303 ubelmann Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:39:04 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94303 Also, <a href="http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.com/2007/08/24/billy-martin-biography-inventory/" rel="nofollow">here is a list of Billy Martin biographies</a>, compiled by Derek Zumsteg, that might interest you. Also, here is a list of Billy Martin biographies, compiled by Derek Zumsteg, that might interest you.

]]> By: Banjo http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94302 Banjo Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:38:12 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94302 What's to know - they were all second guessed, called idiots or worse, they played favorites, they weren't strategic enough, they abused (mishandled) the kids, they were too easy on veterans, they were too arrogant, they couldn't make up the line-up right, they got outmanaged by the other guy, they mismanaged the bullpen, the jerked the starters around, they were too loyal to their assistant coaches, the blabbed to the media, they didn't blab enough to the media, they hated stats, they manaage too close to the book and aren't innovative enough, thy're too loosy goosey. That about wraps it up. What's to know - they were all second guessed, called idiots or worse, they played favorites, they weren't strategic enough, they abused (mishandled) the kids, they were too easy on veterans, they were too arrogant, they couldn't make up the line-up right, they got outmanaged by the other guy, they mismanaged the bullpen, the jerked the starters around, they were too loyal to their assistant coaches, the blabbed to the media, they didn't blab enough to the media, they hated stats, they manaage too close to the book and aren't innovative enough, thy're too loosy goosey.

That about wraps it up.

]]> By: ubelmann http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94300 ubelmann Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:36:07 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94300 Perhaps you are thinking of <a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA196909100.shtml" rel="nofollow">September 10th</a>? Perhaps you are thinking of September 10th?

]]> By: ubelmann http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94299 ubelmann Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:34:54 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94299 Good call. It was getting late, and I missed that game when browsing through the gamelogs. I'll update the post accordingly. Interestingly (or not), retrosheet has this note on Carew's <a href="http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1969/B07161MIN1969.htm" rel="nofollow">June 16th steal</a>: <blockquote>TWINS 1ST: Uhlaender walked; Carew reached on an error by Spencer [Uhlaender to second]; Oliva singled to left [Uhlaender scored, Carew to second]; Carew stole third and Oliva stole second; Carew stole home and Oliva stole third; <strong>Carew's steal of home was his sixth of the year, tying the American League record</strong>; Killebrew singled to left [Oliva scored]; Reese flied out to left; Nettles flied out to center; Cardenas forced Killebrew (third to second); 3 R (2 ER), 2 H, 1 E, 1 LOB. Angels 0, Twins 3.</blockquote> But no note for Carew's <a href="http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1969/B06160MIN1969.htm" rel="nofollow">July 16th steal</a>: <blockquote>TWINS 2ND: Tovar singled to left; Tovar stole second; Hall singled to right [Tovar to third]; Uhlaender singled [Tovar scored, Hall to second]; NYMAN REPLACED WYNNE (PITCHING); Carew forced Uhlaender (shortstop to second) [Hall to third]; Reese was called out on strikes; Killebrew walked [Carew to second]; Manuel walked [Hall scored, Carew to third, Killebrew to second]; <i>Carew stole home</i> and Killebrew stole third and Manuel stole second; Roseboro struck out; 3 R, 3 H, 0 E, 2 LOB. White Sox 2, Twins 6.</blockquote> (emphasis mine) But looking in other corners of the interwebs, baseball-almanac.com <a href="http://www.baseball-almanac.com/recbooks/rb_stbah.shtml" rel="nofollow">has Ty Cobb with the AL record at 8</a>, but that was out of <a href="http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/cobbty01.shtml" rel="nofollow">61 total steals</a> and an unknown number of CS. While it looks like Carew didn't have the record, to have such a large percentage of his steals be steals of home plate is certainly unique. Good call. It was getting late, and I missed that game when browsing through the gamelogs. I'll update the post accordingly.

Interestingly (or not), retrosheet has this note on Carew's June 16th steal:

TWINS 1ST: Uhlaender walked; Carew reached on an error by
Spencer [Uhlaender to second]; Oliva singled to left [Uhlaender
scored, Carew to second]; Carew stole third and Oliva stole
second; Carew stole home and Oliva stole third; Carew's steal
of home was his sixth of the year, tying the American League
record; Killebrew singled to left [Oliva scored]; Reese
flied out to left; Nettles flied out to center; Cardenas forced
Killebrew (third to second); 3 R (2 ER), 2 H, 1 E, 1 LOB.
Angels 0, Twins 3.

But no note for Carew's July 16th steal:

TWINS 2ND: Tovar singled to left; Tovar stole second; Hall
singled to right [Tovar to third]; Uhlaender singled [Tovar
scored, Hall to second]; NYMAN REPLACED WYNNE (PITCHING); Carew
forced Uhlaender (shortstop to second) [Hall to third]; Reese
was called out on strikes; Killebrew walked [Carew to second];
Manuel walked [Hall scored, Carew to third, Killebrew to
second]; Carew stole home and Killebrew stole third and Manuel
stole second; Roseboro struck out; 3 R, 3 H, 0 E, 2 LOB. White
Sox 2, Twins 6.

(emphasis mine)

But looking in other corners of the interwebs, baseball-almanac.com has Ty Cobb with the AL record at 8, but that was out of 61 total steals and an unknown number of CS. While it looks like Carew didn't have the record, to have such a large percentage of his steals be steals of home plate is certainly unique.

]]> By: ubelmann http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94298 ubelmann Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:27:30 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94298 Have you read <a href="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/cheat/news/story?id=2967031" rel="nofollow">this</a>, Will? It's only a chapter, but I thought it was a pretty good read. Have you read this, Will? It's only a chapter, but I thought it was a pretty good read.

]]> By: CarterHayes http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94295 CarterHayes Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:17:39 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94295 I'm formally requesting some kind of series evaluating the managers throughout Twins history. Other than some memories of the Ray Miller era (and being alive, if not particularly baseball conscious, during the Billy Gardner era), it's been TK and Gardy at the helm during my time. There's a heck of a lot I don't know about the guys who managed the great teams of the 1960s and the bleak years before I came around. I'm formally requesting some kind of series evaluating the managers throughout Twins history. Other than some memories of the Ray Miller era (and being alive, if not particularly baseball conscious, during the Billy Gardner era), it's been TK and Gardy at the helm during my time. There's a heck of a lot I don't know about the guys who managed the great teams of the 1960s and the bleak years before I came around.

]]> By: Dread Pirate Will Young http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94293 Dread Pirate Will Young Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:41:42 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94293 Well, Martin thrived on making every pitch feel like a war to the opposition so he did everything possible to make them panic and outthink themselves. I have to believe that it did help the team gain an edge, but I have no idea how to measure it. Well, Martin thrived on making every pitch feel like a war to the opposition so he did everything possible to make them panic and outthink themselves. I have to believe that it did help the team gain an edge, but I have no idea how to measure it.

]]> By: AMR http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94290 AMR Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:28:50 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94290 Any evidence that Running Crazy can stress out the pitcher and make them worse? Any evidence that Running Crazy can stress out the pitcher and make them worse?

]]> By: brianS http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94288 brianS Tue, 11 Sep 2007 16:10:29 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94288 according to the game logs, he had only one steal attempt in August (CS 2nd in the 1st inning on Aug 1) according to the game logs, he had only one steal attempt in August (CS 2nd in the 1st inning on Aug 1)

]]> By: Rhubarb_Runner http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94285 Rhubarb_Runner Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:50:43 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94285 Okay, I must be mixing up my husky Tigers pitchers of yor. Maybe it was Hiller or someone. Thanks for the clarification. Okay, I must be mixing up my husky Tigers pitchers of yor. Maybe it was Hiller or someone. Thanks for the clarification.

]]> By: Rhubarb_Runner http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94282 Rhubarb_Runner Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:33:44 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94282 Okay, then an 8th attempt (in late August?) was mis-called an out. I'll have to find where I read that. Okay, then an 8th attempt (in late August?) was mis-called an out. I'll have to find where I read that.

]]> By: Dread Pirate Will Young http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94278 Dread Pirate Will Young Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:23:26 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94278 I've actually been researching the 1969 season for awhile and Martin gave away all sorts of outs, as well. At some point, I would love to either do a SABR presentation or maybe even a book about it. I've actually been researching the 1969 season for awhile and Martin gave away all sorts of outs, as well. At some point, I would love to either do a SABR presentation or maybe even a book about it.

]]> By: SBG http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94270 SBG Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:43:18 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94270 Wow. That's freaking crazy. And this was Billy's first managerial job. The guy was something else. Wow. That's freaking crazy. And this was Billy's first managerial job. The guy was something else.

]]> By: brianS http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94269 brianS Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:42:45 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94269 btw, that looks like <strong>seven</strong> steals of home in 8 attempts. btw, that looks like seven steals of home in 8 attempts.

]]> By: brianS http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94267 brianS Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:37:39 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94267 April 9 (game 2 of season): Carew doubles leading off the 5th; advances to 3rd on fly out by Oliva; stole home with Killebrew up and one out. April 19: in the 7th, Carew singles with one out, Uhlaender to 3rd; Oliva grounds out to 1st, Uhlaender scores, <strong>Carew to third</strong>; Carew steals home with Killebrew up and 2 out April 30: in the 5th with runners on the corners and no outs, Carew grounds into FC at second, advances to 2nd on E-6; Oliva walks; Killebrew walks; with bases loaded and Nettles up, Carew steals home in a triple steal May 18: the afore-mentioned, consecutive steals of home by Tovar and Carew with Killebrew up <i>and no outs</i> May 31: Carew is caught stealing for the first time (picked off 2nd by Garry Roggenburk) June 4: 8th, Carew singles leading off; Oliva grounds out to 2nd, Carew to 2nd; Killebrew IBB; Quilici FO, Carew to 3b; Killebrew steals 2nd; Roseboro walks; with Cardenas batting, triple steal; Cardenas then singles to third, but Roseboro out trying to advance (?? and Killebrew doesn't score??? huh?) June 16: 1st, Carew reaches on E-3, Uhlaender to third with no outs; Oliva singles, Uhlaender scores, Carew to 2nd; with Killebrew batting, double steal, Carew to 3b; with Killebrew batting, double steal, Carew scores. July 16 (1st game of double header): 2nd; with no outs and runners on 1st and 2nd, Carew FC-6, Hall to 3b, Uhlaender out at 2nd; Reese Ks; Killebrew walks; Manuel walks, Hall scores, Carew to 3rd; with Roseboro batting and 2 out, triple steal. Sept 10: 3rd; Carew singles leading off; with Killebrew batting and no out, Carew steals 2nd; Killebrew walks; Oliva GO 2-3, both runners advance; Allison IBB; with Renick up and one out, Carew CS trying to steal home April 9 (game 2 of season): Carew doubles leading off the 5th; advances to 3rd on fly out by Oliva; stole home with Killebrew up and one out.

April 19: in the 7th, Carew singles with one out, Uhlaender to 3rd; Oliva grounds out to 1st, Uhlaender scores, Carew to third; Carew steals home with Killebrew up and 2 out

April 30: in the 5th with runners on the corners and no outs, Carew grounds into FC at second, advances to 2nd on E-6; Oliva walks; Killebrew walks; with bases loaded and Nettles up, Carew steals home in a triple steal

May 18: the afore-mentioned, consecutive steals of home by Tovar and Carew with Killebrew up and no outs

May 31: Carew is caught stealing for the first time (picked off 2nd by Garry Roggenburk)

June 4: 8th, Carew singles leading off; Oliva grounds out to 2nd, Carew to 2nd; Killebrew IBB; Quilici FO, Carew to 3b; Killebrew steals 2nd; Roseboro walks; with Cardenas batting, triple steal; Cardenas then singles to third, but Roseboro out trying to advance (?? and Killebrew doesn't score??? huh?)

June 16: 1st, Carew reaches on E-3, Uhlaender to third with no outs; Oliva singles, Uhlaender scores, Carew to 2nd; with Killebrew batting, double steal, Carew to 3b; with Killebrew batting, double steal, Carew scores.

July 16 (1st game of double header): 2nd; with no outs and runners on 1st and 2nd, Carew FC-6, Hall to 3b, Uhlaender out at 2nd; Reese Ks; Killebrew walks; Manuel walks, Hall scores, Carew to 3rd; with Roseboro batting and 2 out, triple steal.

Sept 10: 3rd; Carew singles leading off; with Killebrew batting and no out, Carew steals 2nd; Killebrew walks; Oliva GO 2-3, both runners advance; Allison IBB; with Renick up and one out, Carew CS trying to steal home

]]> By: Rhubarb_Runner http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94266 Rhubarb_Runner Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:27:18 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94266 Amen! Amen!

]]> By: Beau http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94264 Beau Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:20:40 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94264 July 25th, 1930. The A's pull off two triple steals in the same game successfully! Not only that, it was a laugher of a game as they defeated the Indians 14-1. Can you imagine the uproar these days if a team was insulted by being triple stealed on in a blowout? July 25th, 1930. The A's pull off two triple steals in the same game successfully! Not only that, it was a laugher of a game as they defeated the Indians 14-1. Can you imagine the uproar these days if a team was insulted by being triple stealed on in a blowout?

]]> By: Dread Pirate Will Young http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94263 Dread Pirate Will Young Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:13:50 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94263 The perfect manager doesn't manage by the book. He manages a little off the book to make sure to keep the opposition on their toes. The perfect manager doesn't manage by the book. He manages a little off the book to make sure to keep the opposition on their toes.

]]> By: brianS http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94262 brianS Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:03:55 +0000 http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2007/09/11/before-my-time/#comment-94262 Of course it's crazy to steal home with the Killer at the plate. But then, Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition. so, maybe crazy like a fox. Of course it's crazy to steal home with the Killer at the plate. But then, Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition.

so, maybe crazy like a fox.

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