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Carlos Gomez vs. Fernando Martinez

Posted by ubelmann on Wednesday, January 30th, 2008 at 2:33 am

I'm holding off on an overall analysis of the Santana trade until I find out more about the players involved and until Johan Santana actually puts on a Mets cap. But that means I'm busy finding out more about the players involved.

Speed

Carlos Gomez is the lone position player that the Twins are receiving in the trade. The first thing everyone talks about is his speed. He's supposed to be really, really fast. I don't have stopwatch times on him (it would be really cool if there was an online database of split times for baserunners), but we do have his stolen base and caught stealing numbers, which might be even better than stopwatch times. As I see it, I'm more interested in how a player can actually apply his speed than whether or not he can run a good 30- or 40-yard dash. I also have SB/CS numbers for Fernando Martinez, so let's compare the two.

Gomez:
17 SB, 2 CS, 57 G -- Age 18
64 SB, 24 CS, 120 G -- Age 19
41 SB, 9 CS, 120 G -- Age 20
19 SB, 4 CS, 41 G -- Age 21 (minors)
12 SB, 3 CS, 58 G -- Age 21 (majors)

Martinez:
8 SB, 5 CS, 76 G -- Age 17
3 SB, 4 CS, 63 G -- Age 18

From those numbers, I think it's fair to say that Gomez is either a lot faster than Martinez, or he's much better at applying his speed through good instincts on the bases.

When Baseball America did their Mets' Top 10 Prospects ranking this year, they ranked Gomez as the fastest baserunner in the system and also the best athlete. So Gomez seems to have a pretty tidy edge on Martinez in speed.

Average

The next thing you hear about Gomez is that he's a 5-tool player. Batting average is one of the vaunted 5 tools, but I think that it's a rather iffy tool for either of these two.

Carlos Gomez batting average by age:
.281 -- Age 18
.275 -- Age 19
.281 -- Age 20
.275 -- Age 21 (minors)
.232 -- Age 21 (majors)

Fernando Martinez batting average by age:
.279 -- Age 17
.265 -- Age 18

Now, both have been either young or ridiculously young for their level, but they have yet to actually hit for a high average. Beyond that, they have both struggled to make contact with the ball.


Dude AVG SO PA SO%
Carlos Gomez 0.278 250 1425 0.175
Fernando Martinez 0.273 118 614 0.192

For the sake of comparison, let's check out hitters who had a .300+ batting average last year. (Plus Morneau and Mauer because they hit over .300 last year and we're familiar with them.) We'll take a look at their strikeout rate in the minors (strikeouts per plate appearance), their minor league batting average, and their major league batting average. I will sort them into four groups based on whether or not they hit for average in the minors and whether or not they hit for average in the majors.

Hit for average in the majors and minors


Dude Minors Avg SO PA Majors Avg SO%
Pedroia 0.308 77 1207 0.299 0.064
Ichiro 0.355 363 4475 0.333 0.081
Pujols 0.314 47 536 0.332 0.088
Joe Mauer 0.331 107 1191 0.313 0.090
Guerrero 0.345 115 1167 0.325 0.099
Victor Martinez 0.319 197 1709 0.301 0.115
Chipper 0.317 139 1184 0.307 0.117
Sanchez 0.318 206 1680 0.310 0.123
Helton 0.327 150 1145 0.332 0.131
Cap'n Amazing 0.308 266 1983 0.317 0.134
Garrett Atkins 0.317 324 2413 0.302 0.134
Han-Ram 0.297 232 1671 0.312 0.139
Mike Young 0.296 367 2237 0.302 0.164
A-Rod 0.327 127 707 0.306 0.180

Hit for average in the majors but not the minors


Dude Minors Avg SO PA Majors Avg SO%
Polanco 0.279 156 2006 0.305 0.078
Cano 0.278 261 2068 0.314 0.126
Vidro 0.279 337 2555 0.302 0.132
Magglio 0.269 358 2575 0.312 0.139
Miguel Cabrera 0.286 262 1559 0.313 0.168
Utley 0.282 306 1809 0.300 0.169
Holliday 0.275 438 2570 0.319 0.170
Wright 0.288 302 1638 0.311 0.184

Hit for average in the minors but not the majors


Dude Minors Avg SO PA Majors Avg SO%
Carlos Lee 0.306 260 2338 0.288 0.111
Lowell 0.295 258 2068 0.280 0.125
Dmitri Young 0.301 351 2573 0.292 0.136
Luis Castillo 0.307 246 1752 0.294 0.140
Aramis 0.304 261 1740 0.283 0.150
Justin Morneau 0.310 322 2062 0.276 0.156
Teixeira 0.313 61 374 0.286 0.163
Nick Markakis 0.301 194 1176 0.296 0.165
Crawford 0.295 308 1815 0.296 0.170
Randy Winn 0.303 370 2086 0.286 0.177
Granderson 0.299 350 1802 0.280 0.194
B.J. Upton 0.296 424 2118 0.280 0.200
Ortiz 0.310 472 2161 0.289 0.218

Didn't hit for average in the minors or the majors


Dude Minors Avg SO PA Majors Avg SO%
Orlando Cabrera 0.267 194 1803 0.273 0.108
Renteria 0.258 281 1745 0.291 0.161
Rowand 0.281 306 1839 0.286 0.166
Figgins 0.274 518 3033 0.293 0.171
Posada 0.261 452 2101 0.277 0.215
Derrek Lee 0.291 630 2655 0.281 0.237

Now here is a quick summary table:

Hits for average?


Minor Lg? Major Lg? SO%
Yes Yes 0.118
No Yes 0.146
Yes No 0.162
No No 0.176

From the summary table, we see the strikeout rates fall exactly as I might expect them to fall. The guys who strike out the least of that group wind up hitting for average everywhere. In the two middle groups, if you didn't know their strikeout rates, you might expect the guys who hit for average in the minors to hit for a better average in the majors, but that was not the case. The strikeout rate turns out to be an important tool for differentiating the two groups on the borderline. That the group with mediocre career averages in the majors and minors exists is a testament to fluctuations around the mean. If you're a .270-.285 hitter, every now and then you'll hit over .300, you just aren't doing it consistently.

Looking at Gomez and Martinez's strikeout rates, they seem to fall most closely in the "doesn't hit for average in the majors or minors" group, but they do have a lower strikeout rate than a couple of the guys in the group that improved from the minors to the majors. Specifically, the four guys closest in profile seem to be Miguel Cabrera, Chase Utley, Matt Holliday, and David Wright. Let's look at what all of those guys hit in the minors.

.278/.336/.399 -- Gomez
.273/.334/.421 -- Martinez
.286/.346/.431 -- Cabrera
.275/.348/.424 -- Holliday
.282/.345/.465 -- Utley
.288/.383/.474 -- Wright

Gomez and Martinez are behind those guys (especially Utley and Wright in the power department, and Wright trumps everyone with his walk rate), but it's not a huge difference. I don't mean to give you the impression that either of those two are likely to turn out to be Cabrera, Holliday, Utley, or Wright (who have all already been mentioned in MVP discussions), but looking at their numbers, I don't think we can rule it out, either.

Power

Neither Gomez or Martinez has hit for impressive power yet, but that tends to be the last tool to develop (as you can see with Cabrera and Holliday, for instance.) Gomez is 6'2" which gives him the sort of frame that could fill out to develop power. One comparison I haven't seen thrown around much here is Torii Hunter. Hunter hit .269/.322/.416 in the minors with a .182 SO% while being pushed through the system because he was a good defender. He went on to develop some power and has hit .271/.324/.469 in the majors. Without doing a much more comprehensive analysis (basically, doing what PECOTA does) I can't really tell you how likely it is that Martinez or Gomez will develop that power, but it does seem to be in the cards.

Defense

Baseball America ranks Gomez as the best defensive outfielder in the Mets' system and the prospect with the best arm in the Mets' system. Looking at their 2011 projected lineup for the Mets, I was at first startled. Gomez was in CF, pushing Beltran to RF and Lastings Milledge to LF. Wither Martinez? At first base! Gomez, Beltran, and Milledge can all (to varying degrees) credibly play CF, so that doesn't necessarily mean Martinez needs to move out of the outfield, but it does seem that Gomez has a clear edge in defensive value over Martinez. By all accounts, Gomez' glove can play in CF, whereas Martinez may eventually need to move to a corner. That makes a pretty big difference in their relative values, and it's one thing that I think pushes Gomez closer to a Hunter comparison.

Overall

Putting the whole package together, here's how I see it. I feel comfortable giving Gomez a sort of median projection around +10 runs (above average) on defense in CF, and +5 runs on the bases. I also think that Gomez should be able to hit at least replacement level in CF. (He has a stronger track record than Rivas, another guy who was pushed through the minors, and even Rivas was able to hit replacement level.) Probably through his prime it is even reasonable to project him at 5-15 runs above replacement level at the plate. That would make him a 2-3 wins per year player, which would put him in line with a late first-round draft pick.

I feel like I have a harder time with Martinez. One thing I haven't mentioned is that he's had some difficulty staying healthy, but just like everything else with him, the small sample caveat applies. Combining the scouting I've read with the numbers, and reading a little between the lines, I'd guess that he'll hit more than Gomez but also have less defensive value. At least while he's young, I'd guess maybe a -5 in CF or +5 in a corner on defense, no real baserunning value, and 15-25 runs above replacement as a CF or 5-15 runs above replacement from a corner. Altogether, that would also make him a 2-3 wins per year player.

Why does BA rank Martinez ahead of Gomez? I'd guess it's because they think he has a higher ceiling at the plate. Defense is important, but an elite bat beats an elite glove. It seems that Martinez has a longer way to go to realize that Miguel Cabrera sort of ceiling than Gomez has to go to be a +15 or +20 defender in CF.

I'm not all that disappointed that we wound up with Gomez instead of Martinez. Gomez has a lower ceiling but it's still a good ceiling and he is closer to realizing that ceiling, so it's mostly a wash for me. As for Ellsbury and Cabrera, well, I've rambled on enough for one post.

Carlos Gomez is someone who I can reasonable hope to develop into a solid contributor, the way that Torii Hunter was a solid contributor for this team. It would be easier to cheer for him if he had a catchy nickname, though.

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This entry was posted by ubelmann on Wednesday, January 30th, 2008 at 2:33 am and is filed under Guest Writers, MLB, Minnesota Twins, ubelmann. It is one of 609 entries by the author. We are no longer accepting Letters to the Editor on this post. Why?

28 LTEs

Dicta
Dicta replied on January 30th, 2008 at 8:23 am

Nice analysis (as always). Makes me feel a little better...but only a little.

Perhaps he'll have some "Lew Ford like moments" and we'll be able to call him Gomer.

 
Rhubarb_Runner
Rhubarb_Runner replied on January 30th, 2008 at 8:29 am

Gomez

brianS
brianS replied on January 30th, 2008 at 11:21 am

ok, this brings up a serious issue. John Astin or Raul Julia?

Rhubarb_Runner
Rhubarb_Runner replied on January 30th, 2008 at 11:29 am

Oh COME ON! What's serious about that? Astin walks up and down Julia, and he's also Rudy's old man.

Dread Pirate Will Young
Dread Pirate Will Young replied on January 30th, 2008 at 11:50 am

Nonsense, Detective Bolander is Rudy's father.

brianS
brianS replied on January 30th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

Whiff, whiff. Samwise's biological father is rock impresario Michael Tell.

 
 
 
 
 
Dread Pirate Will Young
Dread Pirate Will Young replied on January 30th, 2008 at 8:45 am

Carlos Gomez does a much, much better job of breaking down pitching mechanics than any other prospect in the minors.

Andrew
Andrew replied on January 30th, 2008 at 9:14 am

Reading Gomez's 2007 MLB Draft Awards, look what I found under "Worst Picks"

3) OF Ben Revere, Twins (29th overall)
I know he's off to a great start, but if the Twins wanted to go with an outfielder for less than slot, then why not go with Rike (72nd overall to the Rockies) or Kulbacki (40th overall to Padres).

 
 
Algonad
Algonad replied on January 30th, 2008 at 8:46 am

Will Gomez develop faster with another year at AAA or the majors? I don't think 2008 matters for the Twins so if it helps his development, you might as well throw Gomez to the wolves.

Rhubarb_Runner
Rhubarb_Runner replied on January 30th, 2008 at 9:35 am

God no! Don't let McHale get his hands on him!

 
twayn
twayn replied on January 30th, 2008 at 10:14 am

I don't know if faster is the most important consideration. The question I would ask is will Gomez develop better with another year at AAA or the majors? I tend to think he could benefit more from another year at AAA. It would depend a lot on how much Gardy is willing to use him. If Gardy slots him as a 4th or 5th OF, then he would be better off down in Rochester getting regular at-bats. If Gardy makes him the starting CF, then he'll have to develop his bat against major league pitching, which could lead to some confidence issues if he struggles initially at the plate. Tough call. Some people believe he's MLB ready. I think another year at AAA would be best for him, but that's not a deeply rooted conviction, just a casual opinion.

ubelmann
ubelmann replied on January 30th, 2008 at 12:06 pm

I tend to agree that Gomez could use a year at AAA, or at least half of a year. It's one thing if a prospect is hitting like Mauer did when he was in the minors, which makes me think that skipping AAA is probably okay, but without totally rock solid numbers, I'd rather not see him skip AAA altogether.

The Twins must think pretty highly of him and what he means for the future, so I am really hoping that they won't let him sit on the bench at any level, and I wouldn't really even want to see him in a platoon this year, either. Kid needs at-bats.

Diggity Dino
Diggity Dino replied on January 30th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

I agree that he needs ABs and wouldn't probably benefit from a platoon. The other factor to think about is service time - no reason to waste his service time if he will be struggling or sitting on the bench - might as well give him a half year or more AAA.

ubelmann
ubelmann replied on January 30th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of holding back players due to service time considerations, but I think it's reasonable to use that as sort of a tie-breaker here. Even if Gomez could play with the Twins this year, it's not like he's had 500 PA in AAA already and proven he's learned everything he's going to learn there.

Plus, the flip side is that I kind of want to find out about Pridie. He'll be 24, he hasn't had a ton of playing time in AAA--though he's had some--and I'm still pretty convinced that eventually he'll turn out to be a good 4th outfielder, but if this is going to be a lost year anyway, I'd rather find out just how good his glove is in CF and how he looks at the plate.

Come to think of it--the Twins are going to need to move some guys to corner spots or something. Off the top of my head, the organization now has: Pridie, Gomez, Span, Roberts, Benson, and Revere who should all be playing full time, or at least most of the time. I guess if you just got rid of Span somehow, you could put Pridie in MLB, Gomez in AAA, keep Roberts in AA, Benson in A, and move Revere up to A-. I don't know, I just hope that the Twins don't push Gomez too fast so that they can keep Span in CF somewhere.

Diggity Dino
Diggity Dino replied on January 30th, 2008 at 6:29 pm

That CF plan sounds good to me. You could move Span to LF and keep giving him ABs anyway, since there isn't much else in terms of AAA-level OF prospects (McDonald?)

(LTEs wont nest below this level)
brianS
brianS replied on January 30th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

remind me who Roberts is again? And why, exactly, would they want to work Span at a corner OF spot? As poor value he provides in CF, wouldn't he just be a worse value in a corner OF spot?

what's the word on Brock Peterson as a corner/DH guy? He's been in the system 5 years and had good success in AA last year. He's coming on his age-24 season, so it's pretty much now-or-never, isn't it?

 
Diggity Dino
Diggity Dino replied on January 30th, 2008 at 9:15 pm

Brandon Roberts came over in a trade for the incomperable Juan Castro.

Last year, as a 22-year old in AA, he hit .293/.355/.374, with 14 SB. Decent on-base skills, no power, but pretty good speed it seems (stole 50 bases as a 21-yo for MN/Cin high-A teams). So he would theoretically be ready for a move up to AAA too.

Yeah, Span would be a worse value as a corner. That said, if they are going to stick with him, his bat needs to improve. So they need to keep getting him at-bats, even if that means moving him to a different position so he can stay in the line-up. I wouldn't think that moving him to LF for half a season or so would hurt his defensive skills significantly, but he really isn't much of a prospect anymore, so it probably doesn't matter much what they end up doing.

 
brianS
brianS replied on January 31st, 2008 at 12:45 am

he really isn't much of a prospect anymore, so it probably doesn't matter much what they end up doing.

xactly.

 
ubelmann
ubelmann replied on January 31st, 2008 at 1:28 am

I wouldn't think that moving him to LF for half a season or so would hurt his defensive skills significantly, but he really isn't much of a prospect anymore, so it probably doesn't matter much what they end up doing.

Actually, if he's going to be anything, it's a 4th OFer, so they might as well start having him get practice seeing the ball in RF and LF.

 
brianS
brianS replied on January 31st, 2008 at 1:46 am

Actually, if he's going to be anything, it's a 4th OFer, so they might as well start having him get practice seeing the ball in RF and LF.

Jason Tyner without the bat?

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
socaltwinsfan
socaltwinsfan replied on January 30th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

As for a nickname, his speed and his name makes me think of Carlos the Cat, as in "Quick as a ...". Being hispanic, he could just be El Gato.

E-6
E-6 replied on January 30th, 2008 at 1:30 pm

CarGo.

If he was slow, we could've called him Escargot.

SBG
SBG replied on January 30th, 2008 at 1:39 pm

Waiter! There's snails on her plate! /navin

E-6
E-6 replied on January 30th, 2008 at 3:10 pm

Jerk.

 
 
 
 
spycake
spycake replied on January 30th, 2008 at 7:08 pm

Nice write-up, ubes. It seems like worst case, Gomez should be a useful ML centerfielder based on his speed and defense. The skill set on Martinez makes him much more hit-or-miss, from my perspective (and likely the Twins').

I wonder, though, if the Twins are indeed high on Pridie (and all indications -- Rule 5, not backing down in Garza trade -- seem to indicate that), and his service clock hasn't even started yet, and we're well-stocked in the OF corners... could Gomez be trade bait? I just got the idea over at TwinsGeek that Gomez plus pitching prospects could be flipped to the Orioles for Bedard. I'm sure it plenty worthy of debunking, but it's got my optimism up for the time being. The Orioles have done crazier things.

ubelmann
ubelmann replied on January 30th, 2008 at 7:52 pm

It seems like worst case, Gomez should be a useful ML centerfielder based on his speed and defense.

I think I agree with that. I know most Twins fans don't want to hear about an all-glove, no-hit player, but at an up-the-middle position you could do worse.

The skill set on Martinez makes him much more hit-or-miss, from my perspective (and likely the Twins').

Yeah, Gomez already is good at defense and Martinez is still pretty far away with his bat, and if his bat doesn't develop, he won't have the same defense to fall back on. Gomez seems like a safer bet to turn into something.

I just got the idea over at TwinsGeek that Gomez plus pitching prospects could be flipped to the Orioles for Bedard.

I'd rather flip Gomez plus some stuff to get Adam Jones. :)

 
SBG
SBG replied on January 31st, 2008 at 8:10 am

I'd be really surprised if Eric Bedard is wearing a Twins uniform.

spycake
spycake replied on January 31st, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Me too. But it might be a pleasant surprise, depending on the particulars...

 
 
 

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