Denard Span Challenges All Comers

February 4th, 2008 by ubelmann


The Twins Territory blog has recently posted an interview with Denard Span where he is nothing if not chock full of confidence.

Denard Span felt he was ready to step up and play centerfield last season for the Twins. That viewpoint has not changed with the New Year, and Span says he is still ready to step in and fill the hole.

"I'm definitely ready; I thought I was ready after spring training last year. I felt like I had proven to others and especially to the Twins organization that I was ready for the next level and now one year later everyone is writing me off because of one bad half of baseball in Rochester."

Yes Denard, your fearsome career .348 OBP and .348 SLG indicate that you are absolutely ready to be a starter for a major league ballclub. Mr. Span's second half last year is becoming the thing of legend in some parts of the blogosphere, but I see a good August and not much else.

I mean, I'm happy that Denard is so confident in his ability to play baseball. If he thought he sucked, he'd probably be even worse than he is already. I just don't think he's ready for a role with the Twins just yet. (Of course, I don't really think that Pridie or Gomez are especially ready for a role with the Twins yet, either, but someone's gotta run around in CF.)

The PECOTA forecasts for 2008 were recently released, and there was some interesting stuff regarding center field. The first thing that stood out to me was the UPSIDE scores of our 3 4 hell, let's make it 5 would-be centerfielders of the future. (UPSIDE is one way to look at a player's long-term value by looking at whether or not comparable players became above-average major leaguers.)

58.4 -- Ben Revere (4th-highest UPSIDE of all 20-year-olds)
42.4 -- Joe Benson
27.1 -- Denard Span
6.1 -- Jason Pridie
5.7 -- Carlos Gomez

Having looked up and down UPSIDE scores for the last day or so, I think they're fairly imperfect for long-term prospect evaluation. For instance, Revere's 58.4 is pretty off-the-charts, because on average, the UPSIDE scores for 20-year-olds are lower than for, say, 23-year-olds, even though there's no real a priori reason to expect that more/better baseball babies were born in 1985 than 1988. But, keeping in mind that it's a rough guide, it gives us someplace to start the conversation.

Anyway, I was surprised to see Span so high up that list. I gave his numbers another look, and I'll give him this: while he hasn't been particularly young for his level, he hasn't stuck around any one level for a long time. When looking at some of the super young prospects like Delmon Young and Fernando Martinez this off-season--guys who were pushed pretty hard--I kind of noticed a trend where even if guys weren't very spectacular in the minors but were pushed along anyway, and didn't totally fall off, they managed to make the majors and not totally fail there. Perhaps we should call it the Rivas effect.

Span's been plugging his way through the minors, basically hitting .280/.350/.350 with some variation around that. Superficially, his .267/.323/.355 line last year looks worse than his career line, but add just a few singles to that line (as a career .283 hitter he could've been a bit unlucky) and you've got about a .283/.339/.371 line. A bit of a dent in the OBP, but a bit of a boost to his power.

Now, there was nothing special about Luis Rivas and I don't think there will be anything special about Denard Span, but if Rivas was the utility infielder, capable of playing multiple positions, I don't think we would've seen too many complaints about him. I tend to think that Span can eventually be a replacement level hitter in the majors. If he can play good defense, then for the minimum, that's a decent 4th outfielder. It's not what you really want out of a #1 draft pick, but that's what we've got on our hands. I don't like his chances of becoming a league average player as much as PECOTA, but I guess that possibility lingers.

Bonus: Denard Span's #1 PECOTA comparable hit .289/.337/.389 in his rookie season at the age of 22 in 1982. Name that player.



Comments Feed7 Letters to the Editor

Nick N. replied on February 5, 2008 at 12:43:31 am

Denard Span's #1 PECOTA comparable hit .289/.337/.389 in his rookie season at the age of 22 in 1982. Name that player.

That's a stumper. I wanted to say Steve Sax but I looked him up and his numbers were a bit off.

 
kg2005 replied on February 5, 2008 at 2:13:58 am

Tony Gwynn. I'd take it.

ubelmann replied on February 5, 2008 at 12:50:22 pm

That is correct.

 
 
spycake replied on February 5, 2008 at 7:23:44 pm

I'm a little suspicious of these PECOTA comparables, as I've noted previously about Gomez.

And it sounds like this UPSIDE figure is going to get totally out-of-whack if a superstar like Tony Gwynn shows up on your list -- the way I understand it, Span's UPSIDE figure is going to include "twice the number of runs he [Gwynn] contributed above average." And he won't be penalized for lousy players on his list -- they will just count as zero.

Thus, Gomez' UPSIDE score is going to be the twice the number of runs above average of David Green and Luis Matos, a highly suspect figure based on a highly suspect list of "comparables."

ubelmann replied on February 5, 2008 at 8:27:43 pm

And he won't be penalized for lousy players on his list -- they will just count as zero.

They will count as zero, but if you have a bunch of your comparables that contribute nothing, that is going to hurt you compared to someone who has more comparables above average. It certainly penalizes you relative to your competition.

Thus, Gomez' UPSIDE score is going to be the twice the number of runs above average of David Green and Luis Matos, a highly suspect figure based on a highly suspect list of "comparables."

The actual PECOTA forecasts use dozens of comparable players, not just two or three. Also, I would note that PECOTA does a very good job at predicting future performance on average. You can call his list of comparables suspect, but you don't know nearly as many players as the system does, and you haven't compared all of them to Denard Span.

spycake replied on February 6, 2008 at 10:14:26 am

The actual PECOTA forecasts use dozens of comparable players, not just two or three.

I realize that, but if the top 3 are duds, that doesn't bode well for the rest of the list.

Also, I would note that PECOTA does a very good job at predicting future performance on average.

Does the "UPSIDE" score have any direct bearing on the PECOTA projections? I know the comparables do, but the UPSIDE score just seems like an accessory derived from the comparables list.

And in the Gomez case, all evidence suggests their height/weight data is screwy, so I'm not putting much stock in their "average" results for this specific instance. If they happen to be correct, comparing an 18-year-old Dominican's size to the size of 22-year-old ML rookies, it's probably more luck than anything else.

And how the heck is Tony Gwynn the #1 comparable for Denard Span? That would require some serious league/ballpark adjustments, and even then it wouldn't begin to address their disparity in K rates. Are we sure this isn't Tony Gwynn Jr.? He actually seems like a very close match, including height/weight data. It wouldn't explain Span's high UPSIDE score, but who knows, maybe PECOTA got them mixed up too.

 
 
 
spycake replied on February 20, 2008 at 3:15:41 pm

I just stumbled upon this old thread again while culling for PECOTA stuff... any thoughts on this one? Span seems like a much better match for Tony Gwynn Jr. than his father:

Their respective stats:
Span
Gwynn Jr.
Gwynn

It's true that Gwynn's rookie performance wasn't anything great, but he did it at age 22, and with equal/better numbers (including an excellent K rate) than Span posted in AA at the same age. And at age 23, Gwynn was posting peak Jason Tyner numbers in MLB -- it's hard to imagine Span coming close to that last year. Age 24 was Gywnn's breakout year in the majors (.351/.410/.444, 23 K's in over 600 AB!), which can't really be on the radar for Span in 2008 (or ever, for that matter).

Meanwhile Gwynn Jr.'s age-23 season in the PCL seems like a very good match for Span's age-23 season in the International League, and they are much closer physical specimens too (taller, thinner). Other than Gwynn Jr.'s walk rate while repeating AA in 2005, their entire careers seems pretty close to me.

I'm not sure if the rest of Span's comparables list would shed much light on the matter... just curious. I know I've mixed up the two Gwynns in conversation before.

 

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