Something to Chew On
Posted by SBG on Tuesday, February 5th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
I was reading Brit Robson's back columns on the Wolves tonight and I came across this from the Boston game last week.
Most Wolves fans are intimately familiar with the debate, which prompts eye-opening claims on both sides. Detractors like to say that Garnett is merely a great sidekick, that he needs a more dominant personality on the team in order to be truly effective, a Pippen to someone else's Jordan. Strib writer Jim Souhan and KFAN jock Dan Barreiro have both voiced this view, with Souhan recently dubbing Garnett the "world's greatest complementary player." By contrast, Celtics' color commentator Cedric Cornbread Maxwell was the latest to big-up Garnett by naming him the second best player in Celtics history, behind only Bill Russell and ahead of Larry Bird, among others. Maxwell didn't flinch from the predictable outcry, saying that KG's huge edge on defense tipped the scales in his favor.
Robson continues:
As one who is closer to Maxwell's view than Barreiro's and Souhan's--I have actually taken the Garnett position in KG vs. Bird debates, although I go back and forth on who I think is a better player--it was a sincere pleasure watching the greatest Timberwolf there likely will ever be in my lifetime going against the Timberwolves when it counts (meaning a non-exhibition game) for the first time in his career last night. And it was a curiously nostalgic feeling to be marveling in his myriad gifts on the court and then being compelled to remember again his "flaw of unselfishness" that is necessarily part and parcel of his many virtues.
[snip]
The faithful in Boston are generally smart hoops observers, and probably appreciated how Garnett's defense quieted Gomes in the first half (5 points and 2 rebouns for someone averaging 16 and 7 for the past few weeks) and helped quiet Jefferson in the second (6 points and 3 rebounds for the 20-12 Big Al; by contrast, Craig Smith had 4 points and a team-high 10 rebounds playing 13:22 of his 14:20 with KG on the bench). Even so, if you're a diehard Celtic fan, you're screaming for KG to get the ball and then do something with it in the direction of the hoop. You're like Doc Rivers, who went bananas on Tony Allen after Allen chose to drive the lane and *then* dish to KG, resulting in a three-second call (the first of Garnett's two turnovers) rather than immediately feeding an open KG on the low block. Allen, a third year pro currently averaging 6.0 ppg., had as many shots in the 4th quarter as Garnett took the entire game. The problem is that Doc had to speak for KG, who needed to pull a Keyshawn Johnson--as in "somebody get me the damn ball!"--long before then.
But then it's crunchtime and many of the attributes that make Garnett a player for the ages come to the fore. After staggering to the sidelines with an "abdominal strain" (replays seemed to indicate that Brewer inadvertantly punched him in the nuts trying to strip him on a drive to the hoop, creating a pain intense enough for Garnett to immediately drop the basketball, which was his second turnover), Garnett went to the dressing room for four minutes of play in the latter stages of the fourth quarter. His trainer advised him not to play again that night. But Garnett talked his way back into the lineup. Amazing ability to surmount all manner of injuries? Check. Which segues into the Celts' last basket: KG sets the pick that frees Ray Allen for an open layup which Allen promptly blows, but the Wolves are so concerned with Allen-Pierce-KG that Perkins has an easy weakside putback. Faithfully doing the little things that don't show up on the box score but help the team? Check. Which segues into the final play of the game. KG, the seven-footer, ranges out to the perimeter beyond the three point arc and uses what Flip Saunders calls his Inspector Gadget arms to steal the ball from Sebastian Telfair, diving on the floor with Telfair to push the ball ahead toward the other end of the court as the buzzer sounds, sealing Boston's one-point win. Freakish athletic versatility and extra hustle in service of defense? Check.
Which segues into something that is foreign territory for Wolves fans, even when KG was here. Team has a serious chance of contending for the NBA championship? Check.
Better than Bird. Second to Russell (who I think is KG's best historical comparable). Even if he doesn't take enough shots in the fourth quarter. And that's coming from Bird's waterboy.


*spews chamomile tea at screen*
Whaaaa?!! KG has barely played 40 games in a Celtics uni.
I think Chief musta sent Cornbread some good reefer...
Saying that someone is the second best player in team history is a bit different than saying he's had the second best career in team history. If Roger Clemens pitched 15 games for the Twins next year, he'd be the best pitcher in the history of the Twins, since he's arguably the best pitcher in the history of baseball, but he wouldn't have been the most valuable pitcher to the Twins or had the best Twins career or whatever.
I'm abstaining on whether or not KG is/was/ever-will-be better than Bird, though.
If Roger Clemens pitched 15 games for the Twins next year, he'd be the best pitcher in the history of the Twins, since he's arguably the best pitcher in the history of baseball, but he wouldn't have been the most valuable pitcher to the Twins or had the best Twins career or whatever.
so, by this logic, Steve Carlton (or as I like to spell it, Steve Carleton) is the best pitcher in Twins team history.
Arguably. Blyleven had a higher career WARP3.
I don't see this Blyleven character's bust in the HOF, so how good could he have been?
He's arguably the best pitcher to put on a Twins uniform. But, he sucked rocks while pitched for the Twins. KG may be one of the two or three best players to put on a Cs uniform, even though his career so far is pretty short.
I don't know if he has the sample size for the Celtics (cough...championships...cough) but statistically, Garnett is clearly the equal of Bird and arguably better. That being said, it's apples and oranges to a certain extent due to the supporting cast, but just for something to chew on, check out KG's 03-04 season. That's above and beyond anything Bird ever did. If you take 3-4 year stretches, KG still comes out on top with the whole 20/10/5 thing and his defensive impact. Stat wise, he has a case but Larry still has the rings.
Yeah, but Bird had McHale, the player and KG had, well, you know.
replays seemed to indicate that Brewer inadvertantly punched him in the nuts
Best line of the article.
KG still comes out on top with the whole 20/10/5 thing
Uh, not really. Bird's career averages: 24.3/10.0/6.3. Throw in 3 consecutive MVP awards, 2 MVP Finals awards (in '86 his line was 24/10/10) and two rings. Garnett is a better defender than Bird, but don't forget (and this surprised me) Larry Legend was second-team All-NBA Defensive team three times.
KG is a great ballplayer, but Maxwell's statement seems rather rash. I'm curious how that quote was received in New England.
(it should be noted, I've always hated the Celtics and I didn't like Bird. I was a Dr. J guy.)
Three rings, not two. I think that there are miles between Bird and KG defensively, but Bird's offense was miles ahead of KG.
I was a Dr. J guy, myself.
It should be noted, though, that the Cs beat the Lakers just once in the Finals in the 1980s. The other two times it was the Rockets in the finals, including once when the Rockets had a losing record in the regular season.
Er, three rings. I missed '81.
They still had to get past those very good Sixers teams or the Bad Boys of Detroit to even reach the Finals. Plus, there should be no shame in losing twice to the "Showtime" Lakers.
it should be noted, I've always hated the Celtics and I didn't like Bird. I was a Dr. J guy.
Me, too. I think just about anyone outside of New England loved the Doctor more than Bird. Which may be at least partly why Bird was somewhat underappreciated in his day. Was it Isiaih Thomas who said Bird would be considered just another good player if he weren't white? I don't think he was speaking only for himself. Maybe Cornbread was one of those who privately agreed.
I think it's amusing how in the last paragraph, where the writer recounts plays in crunchtime which illustrate "many of the attributes that make Garnett a player for the ages," the complete series of feats includes, 1) returning to the game after 'an inadvertant punch in the nuts,' which qualifies here as an "amazing ability to surmount all manner of injuries," 2) setting a high screen for Ray Allen--though wasted, the writer notes, when Allen "promptly blows the layup" (why, oh why, are KG's teammates always letting him down?) but, 3) KG still gets credit for Perkins' putback because "the Wolves are so concerned with Allen-Pierce-KG" that apparently Perkins' role in his own rebound and basket were nothing but a snap, and 4) in the last second KG stole the ball from the normally unstoppable force that is Sebastian Telfair. Goodness, me.
I think just about anyone outside of New England loved the Doctor more than Bird.
I only caught the tail end of Bird's career, but he was, and still is, quite popular in Indiana. I remember when he retired and they broadcast the ceremony putting his number in the rafters when I was in 2nd(?) grade. Everyone was exhausted at school the next morning because it ran way past bedtimes, but all the teachers understood why.
You're right. I should've remembered that Bird is also a diety in Indiana.
You should also remember that Dr J. played at UMass. So he wasn't exactly foreign to New England.
Yeah, but nobody ever made a big deal about where Dr. J went to college after he turned pro. Maybe because he grew up on Long Island, NY. But everyone knows that Bird was "The Hick from French Lick," born and bred in Indiana, led Indiana St. to the NCAA Finals, and returned to Indiana to coach and manage the Pacers.
UMass was never known for basketball prior to Erving. And he only played two years, leading them to the NIT. Boston College and Holy Cross were always the college basketball schools of choice.
That was indeed Isiah Thomas on Bird. I don't know if that was before or after Bird stole that inbounds pass from Isiah and sent it over to DJ for the layup that just about killed Johnny Most.
I died a thousand deaths watching the 76ers not quite make it up the mountain. Then, they got Moses and he took them to the Promised Land. Yeah, baby.
It was after "The Steal" (1987.) And it was Rodman who prompted it. Zeke agreed and expounded.
So is KG's pick of Telfair now known as "The Steal II" in Boston?
I don't think so. "Havlicek stole it! Havlicek stole the ball!" Bird's steal would be "The Steal II".
The Steal III? (I'm lousy with numbers, man.)
A perfectly good bit blown because my data was flawed.
I guess I was going for the 3-4 year stretch at the top of their respective games with the 20/10/5 thing. You're right about Bird's overall numbers. Efficiency-wise, Garnett had an amazing stretch that put him above and beyond Bird's comparable 3-4 year stretch. KG's 29.4 PER year was one of the top non-Jordan/Wilt/Shaq (soon to be LeBron) seasons of all time. He followed it up with a PER over 28 the next year. With a comparatively sub-par supporting cast, that makes his individual play all that more amazing.