Liriano
July 17th, 2008 by ubelmann
Tags: Arbitration Status, Francisco Liriano, Greg Genske, Jason Bartlett, Matt Garza, Minnesota Twins
This was brought up by Neil in the Cup of Coffee.
My 2 cents:
It's okay for Liriano to be frustrated. He's a competitor, he's had success at the top level, and he wants to get back there. I get that. I certainly have had more irrational reactions when I was 24.
I don't like that Liriano's agent is talking about filing a grievance. I mean, come on. It has been suggested in the past that Garza and Bartlett were left in the minors to save dollars, but look at where they are now. The farther we get from that situation, the more it looks like the Twins simply didn't like what they brought to the table that much. I certainly disagreed, but it was a baseball disagreement and not a beancounting disagreement.
The Twins know that if they miss the playoffs, they are going to lose money. They're in a pennant race right now, and they want to win it. If they think that promoting Liriano is the best baseball move, they are going to do it.
If I'm representing the Twins in a hypothetical grievance hearing, just this season, I have Exhibit A and Exhibit B of players who they could have sent to Rochester for the whole year, gaining a lot of team control over them, and it could have been completely justifiable from a baseball standpoint. Going farther back, I have Exhibit C, Exhibit D, Exhibit E, and Exhibit F.
The Twins have their organizational beliefs. Some might even call them fetishes. If they think you play defense well, you're going to get promoted a lot faster. (This is probably why Gomez came up ahead of Span, why Bartlett was held back for so long, why Morneau was held back behind Mientkiewicz, why Mauer skipped AAA altogether, why Hunter was promoted with a suspect hitting record, etc., etc., etc.) And if you're a pitcher, you get promoted a lot faster if you throw strikes than if you have some questions with control. (See Garza v. Slowey, skipping Radke past AAA, keeping Santana in the bullpen, Bonser not promoted until he was out of options, etc.) Liriano's walks have been down lately, but minor league hitters are much less disciplined than major league hitters, so it's not necessarily a rock solid indication that his control is all the way back.
That Liriano isn't back yet indicates to me that the Twins aren't fully convinced that he can throw strikes consistently. Whether or not that's true, I don't know, but that's a baseball issue, not a matter of trying to take money out of Liriano's pocket. Liriano's going to be with the Twins soon enough and this whole thing will blow over then.
SBG replied on July 17, 2008 at 3:50:36 pm
Good stuff, but what about Delmon? Does he have any options left? Maybe one. Fifth season on 40 man. Spent all of last season in majors. I think he does have one more option (this year), but cannot be optioned next year.
ubelmann replied on July 17, 2008 at 4:06:42 pm
I forgot that he signed a major league contract right away. I think he probably has one option left (this was a question with Humber, too, it seems that younger guys who sign major league contracts right away get 4 options or something? I forget.) But if Delmon has an option left, then he'll still have it next year as long as we don't exercise it this year. I'm pretty sure that the options don't expire until his arbitration eligibility expires (or we use them up.)
SBG replied on July 17, 2008 at 4:21:07 pm
The Repository says no:
This is Delmon's fifth season. I remember the Humber conversation and it had to do with signing a major league contract as your first contract, IIRC. So, I don't know whether Delmon could be sent down next year. I think no.
And yes, this was just a hypothetical conversation.
ubelmann replied on July 17, 2008 at 4:37:39 pm
Yeah, with three seasons in the minors already, he would probably need that mystical fourth option which would be gone by next year. This will probably prove to be annoying, as Delmon will likely struggle at some point next season, and inevitably some people will call for him to be sent down when that won't be an option.
bodly replied on July 17, 2008 at 4:08:30 pm
Why would you want to option Delmon? Since June 1st he's hitting .321/.341/.466. Not the most exciting line ever, but certainly not deserving of being sent down.
ubelmann replied on July 17, 2008 at 4:13:53 pm
Not right now, but his line last year was pretty underwhelming, and I think it would be pretty easy to make the case that Delmon has some things he could learn in the minors. If the Twins were really interested in pushing back arbitration dates and all that, they could have found a way to send him to Rochester at some point this season.
bodly replied on July 17, 2008 at 4:16:05 pm
Ah, ok. Got it. The point was that they could send him down and haven't, not that they should send him down.
bodly replied on July 17, 2008 at 4:03:55 pm
While I'm sure the Super 2 issue has crossed the minds of the Twins' brain trust, I think that's probably not the reason Liriano is still in AAA. His last bad start was only 3 weeks ago. He had back to back games where he gave up 5 runs in around 5 innings. Since then he's been dominating down there. But that's just 3 dominating starts after 13 starts at AAA that have been uneven.
Without a doubt he will be back with the Twins this year. Probably sooner rather than later. Next starter that goes down to an injury, Liriano is there. Or if Livan goes back to giving up double digit hits every game, maybe the Twins will pull the plug on him. But either way, I'd be very surprised if Liriano is not with the Twins by the end of July.
SBG replied on July 17, 2008 at 4:22:43 pm
The question is whether he can throw 90 more innings this year. I have $5 riding on that.
greenmachine replied on July 17, 2008 at 4:38:42 pm
LIriano's starts at the major league level this year were atrocious! I think if you come up and do that poorly, you really owe some humility for at least the rest of the season. Of course, this could just be posturing driven by his agent, who knows. But between the examples ubelmann cites and the fact that the Twins actually *did* rush him to the majors already this year (resulting in total failure), I don't see how there's a case here. In retrospect, I wonder if part of the logic of bringing him up early this year (not that I opposed the move) was to head off this kind of potential grievance move. After all, B Smith keeps saying something like "It was good he came up to show everyone that he wasn't ready" when discussing it.
But yeah, I don't see how anyone can think the Twins don't really badly want Liriano a) in the majors and b) pitching well. It'll happen.
GreekHouse replied on July 17, 2008 at 4:56:45 pm
I don't see how Liriano could possibly win a grievance. He was obviously not recovered when he was up here in the Spring, and while encouraging, a few good starts doesn't mean all that much. Hell, even Livan was reasonable for about a month and a half before he completely blew up.
Nick N. replied on July 17, 2008 at 5:20:17 pm
This is a nit-pick, but I don't see how the Garza v. Slowey example applies to your point about the Twins promoting strike-throwers more quickly. They moved Garza much more aggressively than Slowey through the system in spite of the fact that Slowey was a control freak.
ubelmann replied on July 17, 2008 at 6:53:20 pm
Garza was moved aggressively, but it seems like he had a lot more trouble garnering favor with the top level staff, though that may have been more of an attitude thing than a control thing. I agree that it's not the greatest example, but I just got the impression that the Twins wanted Slowey in the majors alot more than they wanted Garza in the majors.
Neil replied on July 17, 2008 at 5:29:14 pm
Well, there it's a hell of a leap from contacting the union about filing a grievance and actually filing a grievance. (Related: I always love how people get all up in arms about the latest silly lawsuit filed - it doesn't take a hell of a lot to file a lawsuit.) I think probably his agent isn't doing him a lot of favors here.
I do like that he wants to be in the majors.
Is there really no game tonight? Sigh...
meat replied on July 17, 2008 at 7:54:42 pm
This just may be an example of Liriano's agent trying to force a response through the threat of a grievance. Who knows how much posturing is going on here and at what cost (ie is the manager losing money because Liriano is in AAA?).
bodly replied on July 17, 2008 at 6:19:05 pm
Liriano's pitching tonight for the Red Wings. It will be interesting to watch how he does the next couple of starts.
Also Randy Ruiz has a 22 game hitting streak, which I believe is tied for the franchise record.
davidwatts replied on July 17, 2008 at 6:40:44 pm
tied with Chris Heintz, I do believe
davidwatts replied on July 17, 2008 at 6:44:50 pm
you can listen to tonights game through the web too
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/clubs/ip_index.jsp?sid=milb&cid=t568
(you do have to register, but its free)
bodly replied on July 17, 2008 at 6:44:09 pm
And Ruiz sets the Red Wings franchise record with an RBI single in the first inning. Congratulations.
ubelmann replied on July 17, 2008 at 6:47:45 pm
The Ruiz pickup was a great move. I wouldn't be that surprised if he could lefty-mash as well as, say, Richie Sexson right now if the Twins really wanted a RHB with no position.
bodly replied on July 17, 2008 at 8:22:05 pm
8 innings 1 ernie 7 hits no walks 8 Ks 103 pitches 70 strikes. The scoreless inning streak ended at 29 2/3. Another dominating game. The man is keeping him down!
Rhubarb_Runner replied on July 17, 2008 at 6:47:03 pm
IIRC, Gardy had a little passive concern over the number of innings that Blackburn is projected to pitch this year, vs. his previous season high innings totals. I know a six-man rotation may not be the best thing, but "relieving" some of the innings our young starters have been accumulating might not be that bad of an idea, and if Liriano can do that (and do it acceptably), great. Either that, or re-Boof. And that's all assuming Livan continues to be tolerated.
socaltwinsfan replied on July 17, 2008 at 9:05:35 pm
I remember there being some talk of a six-man rotation recently, but I don't recall where I saw it.
bertrecords replied on July 18, 2008 at 10:17:06 am
You make a strong case, except for Exhibit A and Exhibit B. The Twins could save money by sending down Delmon and/or Carlos, but then it would seem obvious that management was on the losing end of trades. A secret to successful management is not highlighting what might appear to be your poor decisions.
ubelmann replied on July 18, 2008 at 1:25:10 pm
That's a matter of spin-doctoring. Market it as a commitment to youth and making sure that everyone is doing things the Twins way. No one is under the impression that Gomez is more valuable than Santana right now anyway.
FirstTimeLongTime replied on July 18, 2008 at 2:26:20 pm
What upsets me regarding this is the poor taste that Minnesota is obviously leaving in Liriano's mouth. I imagine this is going to come back to bite us in the rear-end during his arbitration years.
AMR replied on July 18, 2008 at 4:18:14 pm
Last time I heard someone complain like this, Longoria was signed to a 7-year deal a couple days after being recalled. Now everyone seems real happy.
Not that I hope the Twins do that with a pitcher with injury issues, but some sort of a goodwill offering, cost-certainty for income security might make sense before 2009 starts.