Favre to the Jets? Now, that is truly unsatisfying. That's what I get for paying attention to football. Lesson learned.
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Cup of Coffee: August 7, 2008 This entry was posted by SBG
on Thursday, August 7th, 2008 at 6:40 am and is filed under Cup of Coffee. It is one of 3094 entries by the author.
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Cup of Coffee Wolves give up 79 points in the first half on Tuesday night (a club record), but they tightened the screws in the second half and only gave up 73. I expect another Korean recipe over at Canis Hoopus. Citizens Online15 Users Online WGOM Sign InLog InRetired WGOM Jokes
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Race to the Bottom: Highest Loss Totals in T-Wolves History67: 1991-92 Recent Letters to the EditorIn Response to Cup of Coffee: March 17, 2010, sean wrote: she was in the middle of "a really intense deadline" for her new book, Hot X: Algebra Exposed, which hits shelves in August. That would have made math class a whole lot better. cheaptoy wrote: We haven't gotten to the full state smoking ban yet, so for now its just in Madison. But there does seem to still be a rather large number of bars in the area that… cheaptoy wrote: You're far more generous with the term you use for the commenters on an SBNation site that I would have been. bjhess wrote: "I like the authors on Twinke Town, but find many of the commenters inane" Might be perfect, then. :) Thanks again, all! brianS wrote: Winnie is preggers. Reportedly, Kevin had nothing to do with it. brianS wrote: Several factors caused Summit’s growth to slow over the last five years from its healthy double-digit growth to under 10 percent: Minnesota lowered the legal blood alcohol limit from 0.1 percent to 0.08 percent in… brianS wrote: Pinstripes ARE slimming. brianS wrote: "I did make a mistake and I regret that I did it," Yah. Losing your composure in a game, that's "a mistake." Having Joe Mauer bunt a guy over in the third inning, that's "a mistake."… frightwig wrote: I'm more appalled to learn that Jon Heyman has another byline and source of income for his reporting. For shame, SI. For shame! Also, I see that their March 15 cover features Orioles Catcher Matt Wieters… brianS wrote: so, they are working on their rebounding?? In Response to Brought Along, Kicking and Screaming, Into the 21st Century, E-6 wrote: Absolutely gorgeous films--nearly every frame could be a print hung in a gallery. You really should check out The Double Life of Veronique, next. It was the movie he made just prior to the trilogy.… E-6 wrote: That was me. Totally dug that book, though the ending seemed rather abrupt. (Might have been because I was so engrossed with the characters that I didn't want it to end.) You'll note that the… frightwig wrote: I haven't seen Avatar, and don't plan to see it. frightwig wrote: Not a bad movie, but I don't get why the Academy loved it so much. Didn't think it was anything … war has to have its own … war movie(s). Iraq was just due! DK wrote: It's been that way from the start. These characters have always been connected to each other; that's part of the basis of the show. You either buy into that or not. Honestly… sean wrote: I really liked Ender's Shadow. It does get progressively crazier, but not nearly as much as the Ender storyline. meat wrote: Synedoche, New York. I loved that movie. I haven't seen it in quite some time but as I recall phil Hoffman was excellent, as was his female co-star(I can't look it up from my phone). The… Rhubarb_Runner wrote: probably, but no plans to for the time being Milt on Tilt wrote: On my lunch break I saw two individuals dressed up like Na'vi. Their sign said 'Avatars for Peace' so I'm not sure they've seen the movie. In Response to Jackie Wilson - Danny Boy, Klawitter wrote: Glad you posted it - definitely worth watching. And I will check out the Orbison version -- he's got the voice that makes dramatic authentic. E-6 wrote: I played this one as much for the WTF factor as anything. (I love Jackie, too, but this number ain't exactly in his wheelhouse, so to speak.) Roy Orbison does a pretty reading that you… Klawitter wrote: I love soul music and Jackie Wilson is great. That said, Danny Boy is one of those songs that benefits from understated, simple arrangements to undercut the sentimentality (and I think it's a great… E-6 wrote: Erin Go Braugh? More like Error Go Wow! CarterHayes wrote: I'm also a fan of crockpotting the beef, though I have been known to use beer instead of apple juice. I might have to switch things up next year. In Response to Happy Birthday--March 17, CarterHayes wrote: A little late (TwinsCards was down for maintenance most of the day today), but better than never: Popular Recent Posts
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The US defeated Japan 1-nil in their Olympic opener.
and lost 2-nil to Norway
Without Abby Wambach, I'm afraid the Women's team won't be very good.
Is it impossible for the Jets to now re-trade Favre to the Vikings?
Give the Jets their pick of a player who isn't a lineman.
Can I keep my dream for a couple more days?
Isn't a lineman or a color of Jesus, I mean.
The Jets have to give the Packers 3 first round picks if he is traded to the Vikings!
Okay, the Jets trade him to someone else who trades him to the Vikings.
Make it happen!
I think the way this deal is structured is a big pile of horse crap. Especially the "F*** Minnesota" clause. This just makes me want the Vikings to totally destroy the Packers when they play this year. Sure, I always want the Vikes to beat Packers, but now I want to see them humiliated.
Adrian Peterson: 300+ against the Packers on the Monday Night opener. That would be so completely awesome on every level, especially inside Lambeau.
Throw in a few 40+ yard TD pass plays from Tavaris and I'm with you.
...To Berrian, just to show the Bears what they're missing while they watch on tv.
Is Aaron Rodgers going to survive the onslaught from the Vikes' defensive line? He could be out of the game and the Pack could be nowhere fast with the QB situation.
If the NFL player's union wasn't such a bunch of pussies, there's no way that clauses like that would be allowed. Could you imagine two teams effectively writing a limited no-trade clause into a baseball contract?
New best-case scenario: Favre flops this season, is released from contract, rejuvenates in the offseason, signs with Vikings as free agent, leads Vikings to Super Bowl victory, Packers fans forced to wonder whether they will ever win a Super Bowl without Favre.
One more reason to hate the NFL.
The NBA has restrictions about retrading players (they can't be bundled with other players for a certain amount of time), but the rules are UNIFORM. This is just bullshit. But, there's no way it won't be enforced. I would love to see the Jets and Vikes make a bogus trade where the Vikes give the Jets a third round pick for some undrafted rookie and then the Jets cut Favre so that the Vikings can sign him.
this is where a "best interest of..." commissioner power should be exercised. A trade clause that kicks in if one of the trading teams makes a subsequent deal is just dumb.
The rest of the deal is bogus, too. It's structured to punish and the Jets the more they use the asset they've acquired. Mind boggling. Why would they agree to a deal like that in the first place? I mean, that would be like leasing a car and agreeing to pay extra for driving it more than a predetermined number of miles..... oh, wait. Never mind.
It's a kind of hedge, I guess. Low risk, low reward, but if they go and win the Super Bowl, they probably won't mind giving up the 32nd overall pick.
I bet that the Jets could have gotten Favre for an even lower price if they didn't need to get Favre to training camp ASAP.
Twins losing 2 of 3 in Seattle makes me nervous. With this insane road trip coming up, Twins need to demonstrate that they can win regularly on the road, especially against inferior teams. I think we will know on September 5th, what the Twins chances are for making the playoffs.
The Twins are 6-7 in road series since May 1. Their overall poor road record mainly stems from winning only one road series in April and the three sweeps since May 1 at Chicago, Boston and New York.
Also, the Twins have done well at bouncing back from tough road series this year. After being swept at Boston, they won 3 of 4 at Detroit; and after being swept at New York, they won 2 of 3 at Cleveland.
The Twins have eight road series left and only two appear daunting: at the Angels to start a 14-game road trip later this month and four at Tampa Bay to finish their road schedule in September. Only one other road series is against a team with a winning record: Toronto to finish the 14-gamer. The other five road series are Kansas City, Seattle, Oakland, Baltimore, Cleveland.
As a Bills fan, I am thrilled that Favre is coming to the AFC East. I look forward to Terrence McGee and Leodis McKelvin each bringing back a few picks this season.
This has been one of the more hilarious things to see happen here. The reaction of the Packer fans in this area has been almost unexpected, really. I don't think I've ever seen a fan base turn on their team, especially after a successful season, than I'm seeing now. Every conversation I hear basically amounts to the fans hoping the Packers go 0-16 and McCarthy and Thompson get fired.
I'm just glad he ended up on someone other than the Vikings. Better chance of winning or not, it was scary for me to have to either boycott the Vikings or root for the face of the enemy for the last 15+ years.
If he had come to the Vikings, I was prepared to boycott the season (and REALLY hope that they didn't win their super bowl in the one year where i couldn't bring myself to watch).
Regardless, putting the blame in Packers management makes no sense to me. In my opinion, Favre made their offseasons miserable for years now, and now that they've finally called him on it, he's going elsewhere. Shame for the fans, akin to if Kirby had gone on to the White Sox for one last year, but I can't really blame McCarthy and Thompson for wanting to move on.
That's what I've been trying to tell everyone. The problem is, Favre's so worshipped here that most people I talk to can't bring themselves to admit his role in this saga. I think McCarthy and Thompson could have handled things better and they look like complete idiots from the whole tampering thing, but it was either get Rodgers his shot, or watch him waste away the last couple of years on his contract and hope one of the qb's the just drafted is ready when Favre actually did hang it up.
I think that having a long-term plan in place at QB is overrated. There are a few special QBs out there, and a few especially bad QBs out there, but in general they are a lot more replaceable than people think. It wouldn't at all have surprised me if the Packers could have gotten more in a trade for Aaron Rodgers than Aaron Rodgers will actually be worth while he is with the team. Some team could be seduced into the idea that Rodgers would fill that position productively for years to come, when they could probably get equivalent production out of veteran journeymen.
So maybe Favre flops this year--it certainly seems possible that last year was a fluke and he'll be bad again this year--but I don't buy that the Packers needed to have a long-term plan at QB.
I was thinking more along the lines of a QB that was ready to play, rather than a long term solution. I agree that most QBs are a dime a dozen, but a rookie or first year guy is probably not mentally ready to step into a starting role. Of course, in all likelihood, they'll have the guy they drafted this year with a couple of years under his belt, and there are always replacement veterans around.
shades of St. Joe's exit from SF. Of course, Young was an All Pro rotting on the bench behind him. So, just a little different sitch.
as for replaceability of QBs...I dunno. More replaceable than people think, and your comparison of unknowns to veteran journeymen is apt. But that is the nature of replacement-level players, is it not?
Above the median, I'd venture to say nowhere near as replaceable as, say, closers.
Young was more than just an All-Pro. He was a future MVP and Hall of Famer. Aaron Rodgers is probably not that.
Closer isn't a real position, though, the way that quarterback is a position. Relief pitchers are the same way that quarterbacks are--there are a few special ones and some awful ones, but for the most part there's no reason to insist on a long-term plan involving a particular reliever.
Guys like Mariano Rivera, Joe Nathan, Tom Brady, and Petyon Manning make people buy into the idea that relief pitchers and quarterbacks in general are really valuable (and that you need to have a good one to win), when the truth is more like relief pitchers and quarterbacks are just one of many positions on each team, and while some elite talent exists at those positions, there are a lot more interchangeable* parts out there than most people would like to admit.
*Interchangeable is probably a better word than replaceable for this conversation. You'll have to pay some kind of price to get someone as good as Aaron Rodgers, but you'll also get something back if you trade Aaron Rodgers away.
To reinforce ublemann's point on QBs - Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer have both won Super Bowls as starters.
I would even add Kurt Warner to that list. Warner benefitted from a great system and tons of offensive talent around him in St. Louis. His career QB rating isn't much better than Brad Johnson's.
In keeping with the topic of today's poll, Cuddyer went 1-6 with a walk in a doubleheader last night. The Twins said before the games that he would be limited to 6 at bats. I imagine it will take a while for him to get his timing back against live pitching. I do believe he can help the team when he gets back, but I doubt he'll make a huge impact offensively for a couple of weeks after his return at least. I'd sure like to see Gardy get creative with using the outfielder/DH options he's going to have. It's going to give him some flexibility, and a lot better options off the bench than he's had in a few years.
Also, a lot of people who comment on the Strib blogs don't have a very good understanding of the waiver process. /understatement
Seems like it would make sense to try to send Ruiz back to Rochester (I'm not exactly sure who might want to pick him up off waivers at this point in the season, anyway) when Cuddyer comes back. Then, against LHP, play a Delmon-Gomez-Span OF with Cuddyer DH'ing, and against RHP, play either a Delmon-Span-Cuddyer OF with Kubel DH'ing or a Kubel-Gomez-Span OF with Cuddyer DH'ing. Plus, you would probably want Cuddyer to sit against some RHP just because it would be good to have him sit sometimes. Having 5 capable OF and 4 spots in the lineup to put them isn't really a problem--especially when some of them have significant limitations.
We are what, 20 games from the September callups? I'd send Gomez down for a couple of weeks. He can be finessed back onto the post season roster (injury replacement for Neshek) if necessary.
If Casilla is OK to go after his 15 days, what then with Everett? Does he have to clear waivers or can he just agree to go to Rochester for a couple weeks before September callups? I suppose he would have to see if there were options out there to play in the majors in August.
If Casilla is playing with a torn ligament, it's hard to see the Twins going with only one true backup for the middle infield. Lamb has been starting to swing well and looks like he thrives as a bench player (or he's finally starting to feel comfortable with his new team), so it would be difficult to let him go because I'm sure someone would claim him for an extra bat off the bench.
I believe that for Everett to be sent to Rochester he would have to first agree to a minor league assignment, and then clear waivers to be sent down. But teams put a lot of players through waivers this time of year, whether they intend to trade them or not. I would have a hard time believing that Everett woudl be claimed right now, but if he were claimed we could aways pull him back and look for someone else to send down (Gomez? Ruiz?)
There's no way Gomez is going to get sent down after hitting something like .370 out of the 9th spot so far. It's a defensible move, but usually it's not a great management tactic to demote someone further after you've demoteed him once and he seems to be doing well in his new role. I don't especially buy into the motivational stuff, but I don't think Ruiz is that important to keep around, either.
Having 5 capable OF and 4 spots in the lineup to put them isn't really a problem--especially when some of them have significant limitations.
I agree completely with that. Having too many "good" (at least useful) players on your team is not a problem the Twins are used to.
Against LHP, I think it is a fairly easy solution to keep Kubel on the bench, and against RHP, you could rotate the RHB out of there.
Why would you put Kubel in LF over Cuddy? Is he really a better OF, or just more comfortable out there.
I guess that Span-Gomez-Cuddyer with Kubel DH'ing would work fine, too. I just hate watching everything drop in around Cuddyer.
As much as I hate watching Delmon play worse defense than Manny, I'm guessing.
I'm not sure that Delmon's worse than Manny (yet), but I assume that our feelings are quite similar. At this point, I guess I figure that Delmon's legs can take it better and he's less likely to hurt himself in the field than Cuddyer, so since both of them are bad at defense, I would occasionally DH Cuddyer instead of Delmon.
It has been one year since Barry Lamar became the Home Run King.
It's a sad thing that such an amazing player allowed himself to be caught up with steroids, but it happened and now he is the scape goat for an a sad era in baseball. Regardless, he has left his mark on baseball.
It's a sad thing that such an amazing player allowed himself to be caught up with steroids
More or less sad than a player who destroyed the first few years of his career with performance-reducing drugs, completely screwing over the team that drafted him, only to realize some of his natural talent years later?
You could say that they are equally sad, both allowing drugs to change their lives. One before he starts his career, the other as his career is ending.
ok, this went straight over my head, ubes. Who are you talking about? Roy Hobbs?
I'm thinking Josh Hamilton.
Yeah, Mr. Great Story from Texas, who we are supposed to love, just love, as opposed to Barry Bonds who we are supposed to loathe with every fiber of our being. Effing media.
According to Gammons, Hamilton is saving baseball because he had a heckuva batting practice session or something.
Hey...if Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Santa, and the Easter Bunny had come to Barry and told him to stop using steroids, it'd be HIS Amazing Story of Tomorrow and not Hamilton's.
Hey...if Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Santa, and the Easter Bunny had come to Barry and told him to stop using steroids, it'd be HIS Amazing Story of Tomorrow and not Hamilton's.
You forgot the male-affectionate, easy to get along with, non-political agenda lesbian.
I think it's Darryl Stawberry.
Doc Gooden?
Well, Definitely someone from the Mets.
What was the talent that Doc Gooden discovered years later? Going cold turkey in the joint?
Doc Ellis? Or was that just in the middle of his career? Is LSD considered a performance enhancing drug?
Only if you're watching a Grateful Dead performance, I think.
Good thing we didn't trade for Mark Grudzelawjefiojfijaweijfiaejfk, from Rotoworld, as some suggested might be a possibility:
It would have been great if the Royals could have nabbed Pierzynski when they had Mientkiewicz and Grudzielanek. I mean, it might not have made the Royals a contender or anything, but that would have been a great group of names.
They could have had Pedro Feliz and Edgardo Alfonzo for all Z names in the infield.
I betcha Rob Machowiak would have been available.
Saltalamacchia... or something.
Chief Bender is the greatest baseball name, ever.
Homer Bush is up there, too. So is Dick Pole.
I don't know why anyone goes by Dick when Rich is a perfectly acceptable, and much more logical, way to shorten Richard.
PS - I know they aren't from baseball, but Dick Pound from the World Anti-Doping Agency and NASCAR's Dick Trickle are comedy gold.
Rich has that "ch" dipthong (made by combining the "t" and "sh"), and whatever kindof sound "R" is.
Dick is a short vowel sound surrounded by two fricatives, the second unvoiced. Nice and short, like certain hyper-useful cuss words starting with "F" and "S", and another name for a rooster. So it should be no surprise that a word like Dick is vulgar in certain usage.
Why does Edward Kennedy go by "Ted" instead of "Ed"?
Why does Rik Aalbert Blyleven go by "Bert" instead of "Rik" or "Aal"?
I always thought he was "Rikalbert Blyleven"
Im going to watch some Northwoods League baseball in Mankato tonight
Im pumped up!
Sort of random, but SBG's game intro yesterday made me think of this. I wasn't following the Twins for most of the 90's - what were the mistakes that lead to the long string of crummy Twins teams in the last half of that decade? I hear that period mentioned a lot, but never in the context of here's-what-went-wrong. Anybody with a theory?
Puck and Hrbek both retired very young. Twins decided to rebuild and traded off pretty much all their assets in a series of trades that brought back pretty much nothing. Plus, they didn't have much in th minors, so they wandered in the desert for about 40 years until they finally developed some talent.
That's a little simplistic. They signed a series of old Minnesotans to try and fill holes with varying success (Morris, Molitar, Winfield, Steinbach). The unloading of Tapani and especially, Scott Erickson brought little return. Payroll was slashed to the bone. The Knoblauch trade brought some return.
I think that the holes existed in the first place was probably a bigger problem than filling them with old Minnesotans of generally little value.
I don't really know off the top of my head, but I would guess bad drafting/bad luck with the draft combined with losing Hrbek, Puckett, and Knoblauch. The Knoblauch thing wound up being a good deal in the end, but it took some time for it to work its magic.
Maybe it's instructive to look at the Twins' drafts each year from '87-'92? (Really good players usually take 4-6 years to get to the majors, so that should roughly represent when you would expect major league regulars to have reached the Twins in '91-'96, forming the basis of the mid-to-late '90s teams.)
'87 -- Mark Guthrie (Bret Boone drafted but not signed--I didn't know that)
'88 -- Pat Mahomes
'89 -- This was a really good draft--Knoblauch, Erickson, Cordova -- even Neagle and Trombley were useful
'90 -- Ritchie, Cummings, Becker, and Meares all had some kind of value, but at a glance all look like below average players
'91 -- McCarty, Stahoviak, Bradke, Hawkins, Lawton. Bradke was definitely above average and Hawkins wasn't above average until about 10 years after he was drafted. The McCarty thing really hurts, though. Consider for instance, where would the Twins be now if Mauer turned out like McCarty?
I would have to consider the '89 and '91 drafts to generally be successes, but even then the McCarty thing hurts a lot, and the other three drafts were pretty bad.
First rounders:
'87 -- Willie Banks
'88 -- Johnny Ard
'89 -- Chuck Knoblauch
'90 -- Todd Ritchie, Midre Cummings
'91 -- David McCarty, Scott Stahoviak
Starting Chris Heintz?
Hmmm....I would guess Henry Blanco over Chris Heintz. I'm also thinking we would have hung on to AJ for at least another year or two and would never have acquired Nathan/Bonser/Liriano.
We really miss Henry Blanco.
So, it looks like the Andy McPhail era was filled with crappy drafting -- he was just riding old Calvin's coattails.
Yeah, the holes were a problem, but the solutions were always the same answer. Sign some old vet and hope he works out. Sound familiar? The Twins were lucky in that there were several studs that grew up in Minny that were available to come home at the time and that still had value. Except, probably Old Town Ball Steinbach.
When you don' t have the revenue to sign good free agents and you don't have the talent to trade for legitimate minor league talent, you don' t have many options. Major league clubs have two assets: the talent they draft and the revenue that they have to spend on players. When you botch the draft and don't have money to cover up the problems, you're basically screwed.
I think the "sign the old guys" strategy was cemented in 1991. Chili Davis and Jack Morris came out of nowhere that year. They both looked like they might be done.
They were also both second look free agents, a one time deal that was created as part of the whole collusion thing. If it hadn't been for that ruling, the Twins wouldn't have gotten those two key pieces of the 1991 World Championship squad.
Being from New Ulm and having uncles who played with Terry, I consider your comments to be an insult. Watch your back, SBG... I know your real name.
Since AMR is tossing around threats, I will take this moment to note that I have always appreciated Schell's beer labels. And some of the beer is pretty good too.
And I know yours. MAD. I've always thought it was cool that Steinbach was playing town ball after his major league career.
My memories are clouded by the fact that I was a teenager and hometown boy was actually playing for the Twins. Was he really value-less by that time? He once was the ASG MVP!
For his whole career, the New Ulm Journal had box on the second page of the sports, near the scores and standings (no box scores for the Journal). It had Terry's picture (which was very dated for much of the time) and stats for the year. (Maybe Avg, HR, R, and RBI?) "Steinbach's Box" it was called, kindof like how Chris Coste is right on top of Seth's page.
I don't know if they ever did anything like that for Brian Raabe (who was my DARE officer's son). Never looked him up in BR.com before...17G, 29AB, .207/.250/.207, 19 OPS+, 1 ERR in 66 fielding innings at 2B and 3B.
I'm going back to town next weekend, hoping to buy a 6-pack each of Schell's Stout and Hefeweizen, neither of which I have ever had.
Don't forget Corky Miller, who in 12 AB in 2005 posted a .000/.000/.000 line for the Twins. I was keeping track. He never even advanced a runner.
Corky's done a bit better for the Braves as Heap McCann's backup.
If Mauer were a pumpkin, the Twins catching staff would be some combo of:
Heintz, Rob Bowen, Jason LaRue, Redmond, and Jose Morales (career OPS+ of 521!)
And we'd be salivating over this Butera kid...
If McCarty were a good defensive catcher, he probably would have had a pretty successful career. As a right-handed platoon 1B/corner OF, he still managed an 11-year career. At least he had more than a cup of coffee at the majors, unlike B.J. Garbe and Adam Johnson to name a couple. I just remember McCarty getting hyped more than other top picks and someone made the unfortunate comparison of his swing to Will Clark's.
He narrowly nudges the 2007 Punto for the worst single season VORP in Twins history. It wasn't pretty.
But David McCarty was not a good defensive catcher. Had Mauer turned out like McCarty, he would have had only as much defensive value as McCarty had.
McCarty had possibly the worst 11-year career in the history of baseball. Over those 11 years, he was roughly 5 wins over replacement level and if anything, I think that WARP3 tends to set the bar for replacement level too high. Even as a guy who was mostly platooned, he was never a league average hitter in a season where he had 50+ PA.
There's no meaningful difference between McCarty's career and B.J. Garbe's career or Adam Johnson's career. They were all total busts and a huge waste of a top draft choice.
You mean that WARP3 sets the bar for replacement level too low.
Yes, I said that wrong the first time. WARP3 sets the bar for replacement level too low. There's no way that McCarty's '93 season, for instance, was a mere 0.4 runs below replacement level when he had a -30 run bat and average glove.
let's add on 2nd round picks while we are at it
1987: Terry Jorgensen (played 91 career MLB games)
1988: Al Newman
1989: John Gumpf (OF, topped out at Ft Meyers)
1990: Ron Caridad (P, topped out at New Britain) and Jayhawk Owens (C, taken by Colo. in expansion draft in 1992; 130 career MLB games)
1991: Mike Durant (C, 2nd pick of round; backed up Greg Myers in 1996 until arrival of Matt Walbeck; out of baseball after 1997)
Not a single starter, let alone impact player in the round out of those 5 drafts.
continuing the theme with 3rd round picks
1987: Wade Wacker (SS out of Jackson, MN high school, 3rd pick in the round; injuries? played 60 games at Elizabethton over 3 seasons)
1988: Mike Harrison (C, did not sign; later played in Cincy org., topping out at AA)
1989: Neagle. Sent to Pitt in the Smiley deal. 13 years in the bigs as above-average starter
1990: Jamie Ogden (1b out of White Bear; topped out at AAA Salt Lake); Rich Becker (730 OPS in 8 MLB seasons)
1991: Keith LeGree (drafted out of h.s. as a SS; converted to OF after one year; topped out at AA)
Two MLB starters (Neagle and Becker) out of 5 drafts (6 players) is ok, I guess.
Prediction:
Maddon wins AL Manager of the Year.
Gardy is second or third. Again.
The Manager of the Year award might manage to be less useful than the GG awards.
What are you saying? That the Gold Glove Awards are a Farce?
I think Gold Gloves are tres' elegant.
I'm sure it will turn out like that. I think the Rays' GM should be Exec of the Year with Gardy winning Manager of the Year if both teams make the playoffs. Maddon certainly deserves to be in the conversation, but if you look at all that has gone wrong for this team this year (Neshek's injury, failed vets, Liriano not ready first three months, Delmon's lost power and lost in OF, the wild ride that is Gomez, injuries to Cuddyer, Baker, Slowey, and Casilla) he still has this team way overperforming even the most optimistic preseason predictions. You can argue with the game-to-game decisions, but his overall body of work has been probably his best in a successful career.
Not if JoePos has a say in it!
I was just looking at the Mets boxscore for today's game (Johan so far, 6 IP, 2 H, 1 B, 6K, 1 ER, looks like he is on track to have the bullpen blow another one). I did not realize that the Mets are attempting to corner the Reyes market by starting Argenis Reyes at 2B along with Jose at SS. Any chance they might be interested in Dennys?
I saw that Billy Wags went on the DL the other day--not good news for Santana's rep in NY.
Ok, it didn't come to it, but here is a question about how Earned Runs are credited to a pitcher. Santana left today's game with runners on 1st and 2nd. Next guy gets HBP, so bases are loaded. Next guy hits into a FC, so Santana baserunner 1 is out at home, and bases still loaded. Next guy gets a hit, bases still loaded and run scores. Run is charged to Santana who put the guy on. Does the FC get Santana off the hook for the run, and charge it to the new guy?
Simple example. Baker leaves with guy on first. Guerrier comes in, first batter hits a FC, , then Reyes comes in and gives up a 2-run HR. Does the first run get credited to Baker, who put a guy on base, albeit a different guy than who scored, or does it go to Guerrier, who didn't give up a hit/walk/HBP/etc, in which case he has 1 ER but 0 baserunners allowed.
I'm sure the scoring runner is credited to the pitcher who put him on (or his pinch runner, as the case may be). You think the official scorer could figure it out if it was any more complicated? I don't.
In the second example, it would depend on who was thrown out. If Baker's baserunner is safe, then Baker and Reyes each get a run. Same thing for Guerrier...if his runner is safe, then it's him and Reyes on the hook.
And there's the blown save. Tied in the 9th. No win for Johan today.
I know I have 130-odd million reasons not to, but I'm starting to feel bad for the guy...it seems like his team can't succeed in games he starts.
I can't feel too bad about random baseball events. His numbers are solid (.286 ERA, 1.17 WHIP, 7.48 K/9), he's earning his pay, that's all you can ask for. Not much different than Baker pitching gems and getting tagged with losses because our offense goes south.
Can you at least feel bad for my fantasy team in the league that vastly overweights wins?
Is this the league that Andrew reports you have a stranglehold on?
No. That's my other league.
And Andrew has pulled his team up to a respectable level after a slow start. Only two spots away from the money!
Schoeneweis gives up the dinger to blow the save, Heilman swoops down and gets two outs for the vulture win with Wright's walkoff homer. Baseball can really mess with people's heads.
I doubt it will make that much difference. Wagner has blown 7 saves and three of them blew wins for Johan.
On a related note, it sure seems like Johan has been pulled in mid-inning a lot this year, especially for a team with bullpen problems. With the Twins, even though they always had very good bullpens, you could probably count on one hand how many times Johan was pulled mid-inning, especially with a lead.
Different managers have different philosophies and styles of managing their starters and bullpens. Gardy is a guy who likes to give his starters the chance to clean up their own messes as long as they maintain the lead. Case in point, Perkins in Seattle. He was clearly becoming less effective as the game wore on, but Gardy let him try to work out of two bases loaded jams in consecutive innings. It can be frustrating and Gardy takes a pounding for it after leads are blown because hindsight is 20-20. But that's his M.O.
I'd think there'd be less mid-inning replacements in the NL, due to a pitcher's AB coming up in the next inning, for instance. Pitcher would be more likely to be pulled when his AB comes up in a close game, instead of going out the next inning to pitch to a few batters.
I doubt it will make that much difference.
Billy Wagner is the best reliever on that team by a long, long shot. Losing the best reliever in the bullpen hurts your chances of keeping the lead late in games.
Mets record in games started by Johan: 13-11
Twins record in games started by Livan: 14-9
So, Livan's a winner and Johan, meh. Right?
I don't really agree with Aaron's comment about Twins "wasting dozens of starts" on Livan (and Ortiz). The start isn't (really) a waste if the Twins win. Sure, some of those losses could have been wins with a better pitcher, but a win is a win, no matter if it's poorly pitched or a perfect game. Certainly "several starts" were wasted, but not "dozens of starts".
Now, "wasting several hours of fans' lives" would be accurate...
I agree. You could still make a claim that the Twins wasted money, though. You'd be hard pressed to say that we couldn't have filled that rotation spot with another washed up veteran (or unproven rookie) for much less money.
At the start of the season I recall saying that it wouldn't be surprising if Livan had success early on. That was mainly due to him switching leagues, but I figured that eventually advanced scouting would expose him and his effectiveness would decline. He also got the benefit of lots of run support. I do agree with Aaron that we overpaid for him somewhat, especially when you look at the performance and cost of other FA pitchers this year.*
*Stolen from Gleeman's comments section
Kyle Lohse obviously would have been the best choice. But I've been saying that for a while.
That bridge was burned a long time ago.
I don't really agree with Aaron's comment about Twins "wasting dozens of starts" on Livan (and Ortiz). The start isn't (really) a waste if the Twins win. Sure, some of those losses could have been wins with a better pitcher, but a win is a win, no matter if it's poorly pitched or a perfect game. Certainly "several starts" were wasted, but not "dozens of starts".
I think this goes with the point I was trying to make about Livan and Liriano, though I think I'm looking at it slightly differently than you are. I'm not big on saying "well, we won X games in Y attempts with pitcher Z so he wasn't a waste," but the main thing is that the difference between a good pitcher and a bad pitcher over a few games is not as big of a deal as people make it out to be.
I think we've been conditioned by traditional baseball storytellers to focus on the hero and the goat, and it distorts the picture of how to accurately assign credit for wins and losses to players.
Take Joe Sheehan's article today Juan Pierre leading off for the Dodgers. I think he's way off base, honestly. Pierre is worse than Ethier, but it's not a big deal. Ethier (in more PA than Pierre) has a 9.1 VORP so far and Pierre has a 1.4 VORP. Over the last two months of the season, it's at most a 4-run difference between the two players, and the lineup ordering is a complete non-issue, because lineup ordering simply doesn't matter that much. Would I play Ethier over Pierre? Yeah, probably. But it's not such a huge gap that "no amount of geniality, experience, speed, or hustle" could offset the difference in their expected statistical contributions.
If you make a bunch of little mistakes like that, sure, it adds up. But Sheehan is clearly overstating the problem by leaps and bounds:
Even if you're replacing Barry Bonds in his prime with Nick Punto at his very worst, you're talking about like a 190-run difference (though probably less). Even for a supremely low-scoring offense--say the 2003 Dodgers--an extra 190 runs over a season would be an increase of 33%. And Pierre is much better than Punto at his very worst while Ethier is nowhere near Bonds in his prime.
Sheehan's conclusion on its surface is stupid and speaks poorly of his abilities to keep things in perspective. No player could ever make that much of a difference over another major league player. It's just as bad as whoever it was that said Gomez would win the Twins one game every week.
I just realized something really trivial. There are six players with 600 or more homeruns. With the trade of Griffey to the White Sox, three franchises have had two of them and the three groupings are mutually exclusive.
White Sox -- Griffey, Sosa
Giants -- Bonds, Mays
Braves -- Ruth, Aaron
Cool, huh?
If A-Rod gets to 600 next, the list will balloon to six. In addition to the three above, add:
Seattle -- Griffey, A-Rod
Texas -- Sosa, A-Rod
Yankees Ruth, A-Rod
The new rich bully. Same as the old rich bully.
The Twins have a worse record... can they step up, claim him, and complicate things?
well, the Yankees also have a worse record, so they could have done it their ownselves.
but it would be interesting to see if the Twins could leverage a PTBL from the Sawks in such a maneuver.
grr. stoopid no editor option.
well, the Yankees also have a worse record, so they could have done it their ownselves.
but it would be interesting to see if the Twins could leverage a PTBNL from the Sawks in such a maneuver.
Had a restorative escape to a brother's cabin for the past three days. A few observations in my absence:
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wattsy. Listen to meat. Pagliai's Pizza in Mankato is awesome. Thin-crust or deep-dish: the secret is the sauce.
Just a half game out again - Tigers manage to pull off a win in the Cell (from the radio 'cast it sounded like Griffey is already missing chances in the outfield - playing RF tonight for some reason).
Twins playing Royals next few days while ChiSox face Boston. Opportunity keeps knocking.
Because, you know, Mark Craig came to my house this morning, peeled my eyes open Clockwork Orange style, and made me read his column.
Whoever came up with the Deadspin-inspired Stib comment of the day could find plenty of gems here.
the comment of the day phenomenon is a toxic black mold on the face of modern journalism.
the Sacbee has started printing the damned things in the sports section. Who TF cares what some moron said in some stoopid thread on the website? particularly when the comments are taken out of the context of the thread....
Interesting essay by Doug Glanville in the NYT today.